US Politics XVII: Yes, squid pro row

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I mean, do I really need to? We've got a GOP that continues to defend Trump despite all his shitty behavior and the blatant evidence proving he's involved in criminal activity, and who will pull ridiculous stunts to show how far they're willing to go to defend him (see Gaetz' recent SCIF debacle). The few members of the party who do actually bother to speak up don't follow up those stern words with any sort of significant action. They're not listening to the voters on the big issues, either-they're doing nothing about climate change, gun control, they keep wanting to mess with healthcare, etc. So yeah, not exactly the sort of people I'm expecting to come to the table and work with Democrats on a lot of the important issues. And even if and when they do turn on Trump, it'll likely be because they know their own jobs are in jeopardy rather than because they know it's the right, honorable thing to do.

And regarding the voters, there is a little more hope in that there are some issues that do seem to matter just as much to Republicans as they do Democrats. But even then, Republican voters still by and large continue to support Trump, and the fact that anyone outside of his most diehard supporters still approves of his presidency in any way, shape, or form at this rate is still pretty sad and confusing in and of itself. Hence why it makes it harder for me to believe they'd be willing to support a Democrat.

I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised, though.

Thanks for the reply. I think it was womanfish who said Senator Warren has to win the presidency first before accusing the other side of 'not reaching out to her. ' Kind of a big ask, too, with the resistance! grinding into it's fourth year now. No one is going to be reaching out to anyone, not anytime soon. Folks like Joe Manchin and Susan Collins get ripped for even appearing to do that, too. Happens right here.

I do believe Warren would need to moderate her message quite a bit in order to win it all. That's a normal thing as they transition from the primaries to the general, but Warren hasn't really showed any signs of it yet. The president isn't going to change, he's going to keep saying Trump stuff.

Then you have Joe Biden commenting on Warren's rhetoric thus far :shrug:

DANIELLE KURTZLEBEN, BYLINE: This all started with a fight over Elizabeth Warren's "Medicare for All" plan. Joe Biden criticized how she said she'd pay for it. Warren responded by suggesting he should run as a Republican. Biden responded on multiple fronts. He wrote a blog post saying that attack reflects, quote, "an angry, unyielding viewpoint that has crept into our politics." And he also went on Sirius XM's "Joe Madison Show" this week to push back.

(SOUNDBITE OF RADIO SHOW, "THE JOE MADISON SHOW")

JOE BIDEN: It's just an elitist attitude about you either - my way or the highway. You mustn't be - mustn't know what you're talking about if you disagree with me.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/09/7779...den-s-angry-and-elitist-charge-against-warren
 
The president isn't going to change, he's going to keep saying Trump stuff.


right? Trump gonna Trump. it's totally the other side that needs to change and meet him where he's at -- it's the Democrats who are being unreasonable and inflexible and unyielding and cult-like in their politics. we know who Trump is -- he's Trump! what are we going to do? expect he behave like an actual statesman? negotiate with Democrats on, say, infrastructure and deficit reduction? the people didn't elect him for THAT! they elected him to scream at the people they've been conditioned to hate.

everyone else should change. it's the resistance that's unreasonable here, not the entire Republican party, the people who actually hold some measure of political power and have actual responsibilities to engage in actually governing.
 
Saying that the angry comment is sexist is ridiculous and a prime example of how our society often reaches for reasons to get offended.
 
Sweet fancy Moses! Talk about a journalist following a trail.
Long but worthwhile, head-shaking, astounding story

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/1193548156736344065
Woah.

Giuliani is the gift that keeps on giving, truly.

But hey, Trump only hires the best people, right, Trump supporters?


Somebody's saying in the replies underneath that he isn't being fired now. But even if that's true and he does stay on, I have no problem believing that Trump certainly considered the idea of firing him, at the very least, or was going to do it until somebody made him change his mind.

Because, y'know, this is totally how truly innocent people behave after somebody's testified against them.
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Yup.
 
I do believe Warren would need to moderate her message quite a bit in order to win it all. That's a normal thing as they transition from the primaries to the general, but Warren hasn't really showed any signs of it yet. The president isn't going to change, he's going to keep saying Trump stuff.

There aren't enough :rolleyes: for this.

Yes, Elizabeth Warren must moderate "quite a bit" in order to win it all, but Donald Trump can be a lying, criminal, sexist, racist swine with an extreme message of "fine people" among Nazis and he can not only win that way, but nobody should even expect him to be anything else.

If this is your stance, then yes, fuck kumbaya and anything even closely resembling it. Burn it all down.
 
The right wing can go as far as they like, but anyone even mildly left-of-centre has to water down their beliefs/policies - essentially to almost nothing to be considered to be palatable.
 
From Twitter after a few trumphets said "who cares" about his quid pro quo, etc.


Keith Perdue
Who cares? WHO CARES?!? I f'ing care! I care that my POTUS is breaking laws to help himself win re-election, I care if the POTUS lies to help himself & I care that my POTUS is a lying, ego-driven idiot who cares only about himself & not America who he swore to protect along with that pesky Constitution he was supposed to support & protect. Yeah, I CARE that America has a wanna-be dictator, I'm funny that way.

:applaud: Well said.
A lot of us are "funny" that way.



And meanwhile...

federal judge rules trump can be tried for "profitting illegally"
ie: Emoluments Clause case.

:yippie: :yippie:

OK... i suppose my parade will get rained on ...
so i had get my hurrays on now. :D
 
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The right wing can go as far as they like, but anyone even mildly left-of-centre has to water down their beliefs/policies - essentially to almost nothing to be considered to be palatable.

There's something to this. And for someone observing from across the pond, it must seem even more pronounced.

The presidential field seems to be growing for now, not shrinking, because of it.
 
There aren't enough :rolleyes: for this.

Yes, Elizabeth Warren must moderate "quite a bit" in order to win it all, but Donald Trump can be a lying, criminal, sexist, racist swine with an extreme message of "fine people" among Nazis and he can not only win that way, but nobody should even expect him to be anything else.

If this is your stance, then yes, fuck kumbaya and anything even closely resembling it. Burn it all down.

You have to put this in context. We have one of the worst humans to live, as our president. He has created a cult that would cut off their arms if he asked them to. These aren't normal times. And his removal from office is priority number 1.

What you do have is a very large pool of voters, many on the older side, many in the middle, leaning just a bit one way or the other, that isn't part of the cult. Many that may have voted for Trump with the - lets see how putting a non-politician in the WH, and shake things up view - have seen it as an abject failure.
They are also less comfortable with big sweeping change than say the youth vote that, lets me honest, does not yet have the same life responsibilities that 35 year old plus voters have.

This is also greatly born out in racial lines. African American voters are by and large more cautious, because hell, their life already has enough built in hardship, unfairness and volatility than progressive white kids who really like to tout how "woke" they are, but are still blindingly clueless on how their life experience is different from those of other races in this country.
This is why you see Biden winning the very large majority of support of black voters. A known quantity that projects stability and normalcy. And this is also seeming to be the secret sauce for the Suburban Slide.

So all I'm trying to say is, Warren doesn't have to throw away her M4A plans. But to be able to WIN an election with this coveted pool of voters, She needs to present a well laid out transition plan, that might start with revamp of ACA with public option or optional Medicare choice. And then explain about having a steady move to a full single payer program.
This isn't giving anything up, its simply bringing people along who, unlike many here, don't scrutinize every political detail, but just want a steady, well thought out secure nominee with plans they can feel good about.

Win the presidency, Win the Senate, keep the house and THEN go for big changes. This is the way to move forward with a mandate from a wide range of voters.
 
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Win the presidency, Win the Senate, keep the house and THEN go for big changes. This is the way to move forward with a mandate from a wide range of voters.

That is not my point though, at all.

It's that as Vlad noted, the left is constantly told they need to moderate while the right has dogmatic extremists whose behaviour is apparently totally ok and fine to win elections.
 
This is also greatly born out in racial lines. African American voters are by and large more cautious, because hell, their life already has enough built in hardship, unfairness and volatility than progressive white kids who really like to tout how "woke" they are, but are still blindingly clueless on how their life experience is different from those of other races in this country.
This is why you see Biden winning the very large majority of support of black voters. A known quantity that projects stability and normalcy. And this is also seeming to be the secret sauce for the Suburban Slide.

yikes, dude.
 
That is not my point though, at all.

It's that as Vlad noted, the left is constantly told they need to moderate while the right has dogmatic extremists whose behaviour is apparently totally ok and fine to win elections.

Well yeah that's the scary part. I think it tells us more about the electorate than anything. It's absolutely scary that when you look around, 4 in 10 people believe the lies that come from Trumps mouth and think he's great. That's troubling in a massive way.

I think unfortunately it also shows that hope, positivity and change that we would say is for the better, is still hard to win people over emotionally above fear and hate.
 
Mayor Pete is leading in Iowa according to a new Monmouth Poll.

Joe Biden's been sniping at Elizabeth Warren and totally missed Pete overtaking him for the centrist vote. Should make for an interesting debate next week.
 
What you do have is a very large pool of voters, many on the older side, many in the middle, leaning just a bit one way or the other, that isn't part of the cult. Many that may have voted for Trump with the - lets see how putting a non-politician in the WH, and shake things up view - have seen it as an abject failure.
They are also less comfortable with big sweeping change than say the youth vote that, lets me honest, does not yet have the same life responsibilities that 35 year old plus voters have.

Apart from how the economy is fairing 11 months from now, I think it matters a ton who the Obamas enthusiastically come out for. And how early they do it. Voters of all ages would listen.

This is also greatly born out in racial lines. African American voters are by and large more cautious, because hell, their life already has enough built in hardship, unfairness and volatility than progressive white kids who really like to tout how "woke" they are, but are still blindingly clueless on how their life experience is different from those of other races in this country.

It's ironic that maybe the best natural talent in the field now....young, well-spoken, a veteran, business-savvy (even possibly leading in Iowa)

....seems to have zero chance with black voters. Big bloc of votes there.
 
can we please stop talking about Black people as if they're all just one big lump that all thinks and votes as a block against their own self-interest. some of this is getting uncomfortably close to gzusfrk's blatantly racist "democrat plantation" horseshit.
 
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can we please stop talking about Black people as if they're all just one big lump that all thinks and votes as a block against their own self-interest. some of this is getting uncomfortably close to gzusfrk's blatantly racist "democrat plantation" horseshit.

And these comments don't reflect the fairly varied responses among different age groups of black voters. We don't do this to any other group...
 
And these comments don't reflect the fairly varied responses among different age groups of black voters. We don't do this to any other group...

Yes, I should have given that caveat. And of course there is a huge variety of political, social, religious, views etc... across any race, age and gender.
But I was definitely taken by a talk that Trevor Noah had about this. He referenced Trumps "what do you have to lose" comment, and he said, for black voters, even more specifically black women voters - they have more to lose than pretty much any other voters in the electorate. And he made the point that having a candidate that they have some history or comfort with was important.
This may be why Trump got 8% of the African American vote in 2016.

As a middle aged white guy, its easier for me to say, eh, I'm sure everything will be alright for me, even if I take a chance on this candidate, or if I don't actually vote this time around. Even easier for younger white more affluent voter.
The voting rate for African American women over 50 is something like 95%, That's not by chance. It's because they have fought long and hard to get past terrible inequities in this country - to a place that is still not equal to white voters.
And more is at stake for them, and their family's everyday lives, then it is for many others.
 
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Let us not gloss over the confirmation of something we've already known, that the person setting immigration policy in the White House is unbelievably racist

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...erial-with-breitbart-during-the-2016-election

It is insane to think that this sort of poison is what is leading our immigration policy. At an even more bizarre and sick level than I had even imagined.
What is even more sad, is that this administration, is SO completely fucking corrupt in every way, that a story like this doesn't even make the news. Too busy with 10 other stories just today that show how Trump is shitting on every inch of government .
 
Yes, I should have given that caveat. And of course there is a huge variety of political, social, religious, views etc... across any race, age and gender.
But I was definitely taken by a talk that Trevor Noah had about this. He referenced Trumps "what do you have to lose" comment, and he said, for black voters, even more specifically black women voters - they have more to lose than pretty much any other voters in the electorate. And he made the point that having a candidate that they have some history or comfort with was important.
This may be why Trump got 8% of the African American vote in 2016.

As a middle aged white guy, its easier for me to say, eh, I'm sure everything will be alright for me, even if I take a chance on this candidate, or if I don't actually vote this time around. Even easier for younger white more affluent voter.
The voting rate for African American women over 50 is something like 95%, That's not by chance. It's because they have fought long and hard to get past terrible inequities in this country - to a place that is still not equal to white voters.
And more is at stake for them, and their family's everyday lives, then it is for many others.

thanks for making a thoughtful and well-reasoned follow up, where some might have just gotten defensive :up:
 
can we please stop talking about Black people as if they're all just one big lump that all thinks and votes as a block against their own self-interest. some of this is getting uncomfortably close to gzusfrk's blatantly racist "democrat plantation" horseshit.

As I’ve said about fifteen times on here, the term “democrat plantation” is not mine, but is used by Candace Owens, and many other black conservatives to describe the system of victimhood, entitlement, and made up oppression that the Democratic Party has peddled to the black community for 50 years, since Lyndon Johnson, and continues to. A system of policies that has kept many in the black community dependent on the government, and stuck in poverty for generations. Candace Owens is a strong, intelligent black conservative woman.

Man, I haven’t seen Democrats hate a black woman this much since Rosa Parks. “Get back in line, you need us, how dare you try to be free of government help!”?
 
As I’ve said about fifteen times on here, the term “democrat plantation” is not mine, but is used by Candace Owens, and many other black conservatives to describe the system of victimhood, entitlement, and made up oppression that the Democratic Party has peddled to the black community for 50 years, since Lyndon Johnson, and continues to. A system of policies that has kept many in the black community dependent on the government, and stuck in poverty for generations. Candace Owens is a strong, intelligent black conservative woman.

Man, I haven’t seen Democrats hate a black woman this much since Rosa Parks. “Get back in line, you need us, how dare you try to be free of government help!”[emoji849]

right on cue, it's our local racist. haha i knew that would bait you into coming out of the woodwork. how you haven't been banned yet for peddling this bigoted shit over and over again is beyond me.
 
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thanks for making a thoughtful and well-reasoned follow up, where some might have just gotten defensive :up:

Thanks. Can't say I didn't get a little defensive at first, but I thought about your response and you were right that we don't want to start making big assumptions about a certain demographic of people. I try, as a not so young white guy, to put myself in others shoes, and realize i will never ever be able to really understand. But trying is all we can do.

looking forward to a big day today. I hope the Dems actually surprise us in a good way.
 
Stephen Miller was basically hired for being a racist. I mean, these e-mails are neither a surprise to us nor are they problematic for the Trump Administration because those views are basically a feature and not something to be embarrassed about.

The GOP talking heads on TV this morning have totally pivoted to "it's quid pro quo but who cares, that's what negotiation means and we do it all the time". I don't understand why nobody in the media is willing to cut off somebody like Rick Santorum and play a clip of what he was saying a week ago. No quid pro quo! Just stop taking their eternal bullshit.
 
Stephen Miller was basically hired for being a racist. I mean, these e-mails are neither a surprise to us nor are they problematic for the Trump Administration because those views are basically a feature and not something to be embarrassed about.

The GOP talking heads on TV this morning have totally pivoted to "it's quid pro quo but who cares, that's what negotiation means and we do it all the time". I don't understand why nobody in the media is willing to cut off somebody like Rick Santorum and play a clip of what he was saying a week ago. No quid pro quo! Just stop taking their eternal bullshit.



I think the Democrats sounds simply respond with “ok let’s play by your rules then. We’ll ask Russia for dirt on Trump.”
 
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