US Politics XVII: Yes, squid pro row

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The Daily Mail is utter trash, but we should not let the Epstein story die just because he did.

Everyone who played a role needs to be brought out into the sunshine.
 
anitram said:
The Daily Mail is utter trash, but we should not let the Epstein story die just because he did.

Everyone who played a role needs to be brought out into the sunshine.
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Agreed, sorry about using the Daily Mail, just the one that I chose out of multiple links. I have two daughters, and these scum, whoever they are, from either side of the aisle should go down with Epstein
 
Jerry Dunk said:
I disagree that Warren is the right person to start the fight against them based on a couple desperate CEOs trying to swing things back towards the center mid-primary with vague threats of sitting out the election.

They think that she might cost them some money, so they don't like her. They were going to vote for Trump anyway, so who cares?

She can't start a movement. Bernie can. That's my main point. It really is as simple as that. I don't like having to support someone that old. But I don't see a choice.

A great example of my problem with Warren is the leaked details about her healthcare plan. She in one breath says she wants it to be simple, and in the next breath is leaking to Jeff Stein all of the mind-numbing tax code shuffling that defined Hillary Clinton's plans in 2016 that everyone loved to brag about. It's the exact same shit all over again. She is calling her plan "Medicare for All" because the name polls well. She is not proposing Medicare for All.
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I tried to read about that Jeff Stein stuff to educate myself about whatever you're talking about, but I could only find a WaPo article that I couldn't read because it's behind a paywall. I did, however, find that leaked video/audio of her at some meeting with union reps that has been pushed, particularly by Bernie backers, as her "backing away" from M4A. Despite this labeling, I didn't really see anything in the video that indicated a change in her position. It was probably a little too vague for my liking, but it wasn't a positional change imo - to me she was only indicating a desire to let unions and the working class have a voice at the table. If she'd been inviting the insurance and pharma lobbies to the table, I'd have a bigger problem.

And let's not act like I did an about-face because Warren surged in the polls. I always thought she was going to surge in the polls. My view of her hasn't really changed at all since I said I would support her against Trump. I said I believe Bernie to be the best choice in the primary, and that I was going to support him throughout. And if he drops out and Warren is the nominee, I'll support her and vote for Trump. But until that point, I'm calling her out on what I think are any number of ways that she falls short of what I am looking for.

But to act like I changed my tune because she started doing well is a crock of shit, and essentially dictated your unwarranted tone for your entire post.
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I apologize for the tone, it probably wasn't fair.

I'll take your word that your view hasn't changed. I've just, in general, seen a lot of Bernie backers turn the volume up on their anti-Warren rhetoric since she's gone up in the polls. I'm just tired of their need to label anything that isn't Bernie "faux" or "fake" or "corporate". I guess I lumped you into that, which wasn't fair, so I apologize.
 
Irvine511 said:
That’s not how things work, and it’s this kind of mentality that gave us Trump.

It’s absolutely silly to ascribe magical powers to politicians we may agree with and think that, with just one more speech, one more debate, with a slightly more complicit media, everyone else will suddenly see what is plainly obvious to you, the True Believer.

That shit is cult. And it’s exactly what let’s you shoot a man on 5th Avenue, the BQE, or the Church Street Market, and have your supporters think you better for it.
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Oh, i'm sure i could ascribe say 25% magical powers to some.
I'm not sure about your path to True Believerism. Unless you are thinking along the lines of each action you are describing above being seen by a regular support as they accumulate in said person's mind - it's like the proverbial frog in a pot of water slowly raising the heat - at some point such a support might ( at their individual "tipping point") turn into a True Believer.

Irvine511 said:
Impeachment was already on the March. Mueller already gave the Democrats a totally of 10 different slam dunks of obstruction of justice.

Trump being a mobbed up idiot surrounded by trash yes men gave them something even more clear.

Impeachment will happen. Which is what everyone always wanted since Trump started working with the Kremlin and became their fiercest global advocate.

No one has ever seriously thought we’d get conviction and removal. But the more legitimate and airtight this process, the better it will be as GOP senators in states where Trump is unpopular are put in impossible positions, and the more GOP Senators who don’t just stand by Trump but call his phone call “perfect” (as he is demanding) the more the GOP as a whole is deiscredited nationally, despite how popular a certain Senator might be in the slave states.
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One can hope for conviction, but probably not. Thought i'll say "never say never" juuuust in case! :D

womanfish said:
All of this. Seriously, if AOC was the one to bring impeachment it would have been a disaster. I think people forget all of the political things that go on in the background that need to be balanced along the way. That only someone with a real depth of knowledge and experience and historical context can provide.
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Agree with this ,and looking forward over the years to her and the rest of the squad getting better and better.
And, yes, down ballot results may at least partially ( if not more) crumble for the GOP.

Moonlit_Angel said:
Honestly, it feels like the Democrats would have a hard time no matter what they do. They get aggressive, people (speaking in general terms here) worry that'll alienate voters and give the GOP more fuel for their persecution complex, but if they're not aggressive enough, they're seen as weak and unable to stand up to these goons.
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THIS

Also remember how Barr had x days/weeks? spinning the Mueller report.

Moonlit_Angel said:
The fact is, though, that as of now the majority of the country supports impeaching Trump, and seeing him removed from office as well. So while I agree that the GOP is making the Democrats' job rather easy thus far, I also think the way the Democrats are doing it seems to be working on some level. I just want the Democrats to do everything necessary to make as airtight a case as possible, and have enough evidence on their plate to where the GOP would have no choice but to convict, lest they risk the wrath of the country at large.
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:pray:
 
Though you have to admit it is weird that baseball, where the players are most conservative, appears to have more liberal fans. Meanwhile, football appears to have more conservative fans, yet the players are more liberal.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Though you have to admit it is weird that baseball, where the players are most conservative, appears to have more liberal fans. Meanwhile, football appears to have more conservative fans, yet the players are more liberal.
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And from the looks of it American soccer seems to be pretty progressive?
 
Vlad n U 2 said:
And from the looks of it American soccer seems to be pretty progressive?
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Oh yeah, if you’re out there watching soccer, you’re basically protesting the right wing.

Hockey is a mixed crowd, both on and off the ice. Basketball is progressive both on the court and in the stands.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
Democrats couldn't get every Democrat to vote Yes on the impeachment resolution.
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it was only 2, and given how successful they were in 2018 winning swing districts where the president might still be popular, i'm actually surprised it wasn't a few more.

disappointed that there wasn't a GOPer or two who voted yay, but i guess swing district GOPs were cleaned out in 2018.
 
Bring on the public hearings.

For Nixon this is where the public really swung against him. I think the last poll was at 55% in favor of impeachment. For Nixon prior to the public hearings it was in the upper 20s to low 30s

While i have no confidence the senate will do the right thing, if these public hearings do their job then maybe having a public that's 60-70% in favor gets a few of the NEVER TRUMPS to see the light.

Not one single GOP voted in the house for this. They are all willing to risk and ruin their careers for a man who doesn't give one shit about anyone.
 
BEAL said:
Bring on the public hearings.

For Nixon this is where the public really swung against him. I think the last poll was at 55% in favor of impeachment. For Nixon prior to the public hearings it was in the upper 20s to low 30s

While i have no confidence the senate will do the right thing, if these public hearings do their job then maybe having a public that's 60-70% in favor gets a few of the NEVER TRUMPS to see the light.

Not one single GOP voted in the house for this. They are all willing to risk and ruin their careers for a man who doesn't give one shit about anyone.
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Nixon was a time where media had authority and disinformation didn’t have access to the very homes of the electorate.

I fear any and all voices that rebuke Trump will be shrugged off as partisan. Impeachment ought to just tire people from Trump for 2020.
 
Funny how Republicans were whining that this was all so secretive, out of the public’s eye and lacking transparency and then they all vote against making it public.

Weird, that.
 
BEAL said:
While i have no confidence the senate will do the right thing,
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this is the sound of goalposts shifting:


Earlier this year, GOP senators pledged to quickly quash any articles of impeachment passed by the House. But as the Democrats compile more evidence that Trump withheld military assistance from Ukraine to pressure Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, they are adopting a more sober tone.

While no Senate Republican has said the charges against Trump rise to the level of being an impeachable offense, many have expressed concern over the drip-drip of damaging revelations.

Sen. Tim Scott (S.C.) was the latest GOP senator to express concerns Wednesday even though he argued that the House has yet to provide any evidence that would support actually removing Trump from office.

Asked Wednesday if he had any concerns at all in light of recent reports on Trump’s efforts to pressure Ukraine, Scott said, “There’s lot of things that concern me.”

But he added, “That’s not the question.”

“The question on the table is impeachment and that’s the question we should get an answer to, and the answer so far is ‘For what would we impeach the president?’ And the answer is ‘I don’t see anything for that,’ ” he said.

At the same time, Scott acknowledged there is pressure on Senate Republicans to take any impeachment articles seriously.

“Everybody wants us to do the right thing. In order to do the right thing, we want to see all that there is,” Scott told reporters, explaining that he’s not ready to dismiss the House charges out of hand.

Sen. Shelley Moore Capito (R-W.Va.) said Wednesday that the prospect of a quick vote on a motion to dismiss any articles of impeachment against Trump seems unlikely.

“I certainly think we need to hear it out from the House. This is a serious thing. You’re considering removing somebody from office or impeaching them in that way. I think you got to hear it,” she said.

A Republican senator who requested anonymity to comment on internal party discussions said GOP colleagues are taking the possibility of an impeachment trial seriously as the Democratic-controlled House compiles more evidence.

“We’re all becoming much more aware of the process and that’s because of the situation we’re in with the House,” the senator said, who added of colleagues, “I don’t think they’re going to dismiss it.”

“Right now, based on the facts that we have currently, the president will have the support he needs to get through this,” the senator added, though the lawmaker said there are enough colleagues who feel they owe it to the public to give the articles of impeachment serious consideration.

It’s a more measured tone than Republicans used when the House was considering impeachment proceedings based on former special counsel Robert Mueller’s lengthy investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia in the 2016 presidential election and subsequent attempts to obstruct his investigation.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/468246-senate-gop-shifts-tone-on-impeachment
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now that the process will be public, we are going to hear Republicans saying that Trump should just apologize and move on, that what he did may have been wrong, but it's not an impeachable offense. not so much "get over it," but more "Trump gonna Trump."

fortunately, Donald Trump will not go along with this because Donald Trump never, ever apologizes for anything, ever.

Trump may be denying that he exerted any pressure on Ukraine’s government. But this denial is merely an expression of his reflexive maximalist approach to confrontation, which commits him to automatically denying any anything framed as an accusation, not a backhanded acknowledgement that such pressure would be improper.

Trump has, indeed, maintained all along that he was correct to demand investigations of his enemies. Asked about his demands to Ukraine — after the scandal broke! — he replied, “We’re supporting a country. We want to make sure that country is honest … it’s very important to talk about corruption. If you don’t talk about corruption, why would you give money to a country that you think is corrupt?” Trump uses the word “corrupt” not to describe any actual form of illegal or unethical behavior — Trump is himself a longtime criminal, who has surrounded himself throughout his business and political career with other criminals — but as a way of tagging any figure who opposes him. Robert Mueller, news media he does not control, Adam Schiff, among many others, are all “corrupt.”

Trump has accordingly maintained he has a right to push other countries to investigate any people he considers “corrupt” (i.e., anti-Trump). He has stated this right is absolute. (“As the President of the United States, I have an absolute right, perhaps even a duty, to investigate, or have investigated, CORRUPTION, and that would include asking, or suggesting, other Countries to help us out!”)

Indeed, in keeping with this position, he has openly asked China to investigate the Biden family, while members of his administration keep refusing to deny that they are, right at this moment, incorporating such requests into their negotiations with Beijing. Trump has made it perfectly clear that any foreign country that announces investigations into his domestic enemies will be rewarded with diplomatic favor. Trump’s extraordinary distortion of American foreign policy for political gain is not a one-time offense that he’s learned from and won’t repeat. It is a credo, and an ongoing method.

Trump may learn to hide what he’s doing — his Ukraine plot was so transparent he literally shopped it to the New York Times — but he isn’t going to stop.

Republicans Want Trump to Apologize and Move on. He Won’t.
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Diemen said:
Funny how Republicans were whining that this was all so secretive, out of the public’s eye and lacking transparency and then they all vote against making it public.

Weird, that.
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And some of those Republicans had equal access to the testimony that's been shared thus far. They know full well what's been said in the private hearings, they know how damning the stuff is that's been shared already.

And yet they still stand by Trump. Unbelievable.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Though you have to admit it is weird that baseball, where the players are most conservative, appears to have more liberal fans. Meanwhile, football appears to have more conservative fans, yet the players are more liberal.
Click to expand...
Vlad n U 2 said:
And from the looks of it American soccer seems to be pretty progressive?
Click to expand...
LuckyNumber7 said:
Oh yeah, if you’re out there watching soccer, you’re basically protesting the right wing.
Hockey is a mixed crowd, both on and off the ice. Basketball is progressive both on the court and in the stands.
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Interesting sports stuff. The switch between baseball and football - I didn't know.

Irvine511 said:
it was only 2, and given how successful they were in 2018 winning swing districts where the president might still be popular, i'm actually surprised it wasn't a few more.

disappointed that there wasn't a GOPer or two who voted yay, but i guess swing district GOPs were cleaned out in 2018.
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Yeah, it could have been a few more Dems. Well, good on those in more moderate districts.

LuckyNumber7 said:
Nixon was a time where media had authority and disinformation didn’t have access to the very homes of the electorate.

I fear any and all voices that rebuke Trump will be shrugged off as partisan. Impeachment ought to just tire people from Trump for 2020.
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Yup. Why...back in my day when we didn't have the Internets, and no sycophantic cable news channels either news traveled slower, and not 24/7 except on the radio. The NY Post was still a liberal paper back then. Can't remember whether the Daily News supported Nixon. It was more conservative back then.

Moonlit_Angel said:
And some of those Republicans had equal access to the testimony that's been shared thus far. They know full well what's been said in the private hearings, they know how damning the stuff is that's been shared already.

And yet they still stand by Trump. Unbelievable.
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Yeah. Cause drumph will still try and give Republicans a lot of what they want
 
dazzledbylight said:
Trump declares himself a Floridian (Mar-a-largo as his prime residence now).
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Given all the jokes about Florida people like to make, I'm not sure if that's something he should be proud of :p.

Seriously, though, if he wants to hide out there for the rest of his life, he can feel free to do that any time.

dazzledbylight said:
:ohmy:
:mad:
:gah:

@$2%&&%#=$%=$"&#@# bastards!

With genuine threats out there THIS IS NOT FUNNY! :|
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The little stunt with the boxes is even more shitty considering it was just a year ago that we had that pipe bomber going around mailing packages to legislators. Remember that?

To say nothing of the fact that they clearly don't seem to get that pulling these kinds of dumbass stunts doesn't exactly help prove Trump's innocence. It just further indicates there must be something to hide. The truly innocent don't behave like this.

But that's fine, Republicans. You want to act like obnoxious brats and want to openly say on camera that you're all going to stick with Trump. Okay, then. We'll remember that in 2020. And history books will remember that, too.
 
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