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Old 07-25-2019, 05:17 PM   #21
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POTUS 46 Pence is so totally pardoning POTUS 45 Shitbrick in December if Shitbrick loses.


Mike Pence is literally sitting in the shadow not involving himself with Trump so he never pays a penalty and can run for the presidency when Drumpf is done.

If it serves Pence to betray Trump, he will. If it serves him to pardon him, he will.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:49 PM   #22
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Mueller provided good talking points and clarity on some issues -- anybody else would be indicted, Trump was never going to be indicted because of OLC, the Russians are attacking as we speak -- however, there is no moment here that's going to light a fire under anyone. i think impeachment or not is a difficult political question. it's frightening to think of a president getting away with this stuff unpunished, but do you spend the political capital knowing it will fail in the Senate and put 2020 into doubt?

right now, what we need to deal with the structural imbalance of the Electoral College that may make it likely that Trump loses by many millions more votes in 2020 (like, say, 5m votes this round) while at the same time potentially carrying all of his 2016 states. it's absurdly tilted towards the rural states, but so be it -- it's what it is right now. no one is coming to save us.

we need to be looking at candidates who can specifically flip MI, WI, and PA. that's really the only thing that matters moving forward from yesterday.

who can do it?
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:59 PM   #23
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we need to be looking at candidates who can specifically flip MI, WI, and PA. that's really the only thing that matters moving forward from yesterday.

who can do it?
I think that it's a massive mistake to view Trump's victory there as anything but an aberration, a freak incident where literally everything that could go wrong for HRD did go wrong and everything that could go right for Orange went right. I don't even think it matters whom the Democrats nominate, MI and PA are not going to vote for Trump again. Wisconsin I have less faith in.

The constant obsession with these 3 states dooms the Democrats to thinking that ONLY a Biden can win, which frankly, is a depressing and IMO, losing proposition.
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Old 07-25-2019, 07:30 PM   #24
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I think that it's a massive mistake to view Trump's victory there as anything but an aberration, a freak incident where literally everything that could go wrong for HRD did go wrong and everything that could go right for Orange went right. I don't even think it matters whom the Democrats nominate, MI and PA are not going to vote for Trump again. Wisconsin I have less faith in.



The constant obsession with these 3 states dooms the Democrats to thinking that ONLY a Biden can win, which frankly, is a depressing and IMO, losing proposition.



I wish I had your confidence. I don’t. There were states that HRC won that were way closer than should have been (MN). There are other close states — AZ, IA, NC, NH, and even FL. We don’t have national elections. We have a minority of states that mean everything.

I agree that Trump threaded the needle in the upper Midwest and he polls in the mid to low 40s— but it always comes down to a choice between two candidates, and we’ve had three years of normalization and an approval rating that goes not much up or down. What doomed us in 2016 was the lack of imagination that he actually could win, we can’t not imagine the impossible again.

I still think, as of today, Harris/Buttigeig is the best ticket for a variety of reasons. Am curious to see how it goes next week.
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:44 PM   #25
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It was released today that Russia hacked into all 50 states and most of those state election officials had no idea.

No one wants to even discuss the possibility of voter tampering or changing votes

But let’s say Russia just did a dry run, and there’s been zero punishment for it.

2020 they, the Saudi’s, North Korea, etc will do whatever they can to tip the scales to Trump.

Wouldn’t we (and assuming we have) do it to another country to advance our agenda and interests ?
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:46 PM   #26
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As for impeachment the Democrats have to show they’re willing to stand up and fight.

By not doing anything but sending letters and tweets, I’m completely disheartened and the thought of not even bothering to vote pops up (I’m going to, just saying the thought arises).

How many others who are in places where these policies really matter to them, life or death, have lost all hope ?

That’s what i fear we lose in doing nothing. Motivation and hope

Look what PR did to get rid of their corrupt leader, why aren’t we doing this ?
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Old 07-25-2019, 10:48 PM   #27
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Because, by and large, everyday American life is pretty much the same as it was 5 years ago, if you aren’t on Twitter or watching cable news.

PR has had a very different few years than the mainland.
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Old 07-26-2019, 07:27 AM   #28
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The US also doesn't have the same history of protest as other parts of the world except when tied to large-scale movements (civil rights, Vietnam war). And opposition to Trump has never truly organized - the Resist movement is very piecemeal, the women's movement is a separate entity (and riddled with in-fighting), etc.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:21 AM   #29
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https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...318860800?s=21

Let’s say they did delete or change votes

At this point do we want to know for sure ? Or just move on and try to secure future elections ?
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:22 AM   #30
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US Politics XV: Time to Mull Mueller Mania

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https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...318860800?s=21

Let’s say they did delete or change votes



I haven’t wanted to delve into tin hat territory, but I’ve always thought this was a possibility. As we’ve discussed, the threading of the electoral needle, the improbable royal flush he was dealt, the unanticipated mistakes of the HRC campaign, how off the polls were (4-5 points in some cases) ... it’s something that the Left and the Right don’t want to be true, because the Left wants to punish HRC because ... well, dunno, but their hate for her is something they share with the right .. and the right wants to win.

Since we’ll likely never know, we have to double down on election security as a campaign issue, and the D’s have a chance here to seize an issue that plays into patriotism. What the Left doesn’t do is make voters feel good about themselves and their country, which is why they lose. A litany of America’s wrongs and expensive programs to fix them — while practical and real and useful —isn’t the way to win a presidential election. Frame 2020 as an election of USA vs Russia. And we all know who is the Russia Party, led by President Kompromat and his sidekick Moscow Mitch.

Trump wants to run agains Omar? The Dems should be running against Putin.
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Old 07-26-2019, 12:29 PM   #31
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Since we’ll likely never know, we have to double down on election security as a campaign issue,
Election security should be such a basic requirement of a democratic system and easy to sell.

Unfortunately here you also see polarization. To the left, election security is about the Russians. To the right, election security is about Nancy Pelosi busing in millions of unwashed Mexicans in buses.
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Old 07-26-2019, 01:04 PM   #32
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because the Left wants to punish HRC because ... well, dunno, but their hate for her is something they share with the right
oh for sure man
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:16 PM   #33
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The Russians sure thought so.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:25 PM   #34
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Donald Trump is a product of Russia. There is nothing broken about the Democratic Party, the United States government, modern society, capitalism, or the media. Centrism is good and right and wins, and it is only when straying from the middle that we falter. Racism was introduced to the United States by the Russians, who were the first country to figure out that it could be weaponized in politics. There were no lessons to learn from 2016 beyond "Russia is bad and we must stop them." The Republicans will come back to the table and negotiate in good faith once we get them disconnected from Russia and the bad president. But only if we avoid moving to the left.
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Old 07-26-2019, 03:19 PM   #35
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For sure, man.
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:12 PM   #36
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Frame 2020 as an election of USA vs Russia. And we all know who is the Russia Party, led by President Kompromat and his sidekick Moscow Mitch.

Trump wants to run agains Omar? The Dems should be running against Putin.
I'm not at all sure why you believe this tactic would be at all successful in an election.

The Dems need to offer hope, something actually worth voting for - instead of screaming "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA [insert Russian word that pundits only discovered a minute ago and choose to repeat it relentlessly in any context]". I've been long sick of this, and this always has the potential to stoke xenophobia.
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Old 07-26-2019, 08:49 PM   #37
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US Politics XV: Time to Mull Mueller Mania

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I'm not at all sure why you believe this tactic would be at all successful in an election.

The Dems need to offer hope, something actually worth voting for - instead of screaming "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA [insert Russian word that pundits only discovered a minute ago and choose to repeat it relentlessly in any context]". I've been long sick of this, and this always has the potential to stoke xenophobia.


The hope for elections free of foreign interference?

Given the Russian governments clearly documented actions in the 2016 election and their clear intentions to do the same in 2020, and the Trump campaign’s willingness to accept and work with a declared adversary with anti-democratic and expansionist intentions, it seems fair to me.

The notion that the Democrats are running on RUSSIA only is a right wing talking point, one that I’m not surprised to hear repeated in certain corners of the internet. Let’s let the campaign develop and get a nominee before rendering such judgments.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:13 PM   #38
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I like that Rachel M said yesterday night - that despite Headline Certainty this, and Headline Certainly that; that nobody at this point in time really knows whats going to happen since what has happened so far is unprecedented.
-----------------------------------------
Also RM said that new info about the meeting mentioned in my post above:
that that meeting may have partly been about how would they go about the steps of impeachment, and deliver it to the Senate.

-------------------------

The Dems will hopefully (and I expect them to) be talking about Health Care, Climate Change, The Dreamers, the Southern Border, College Debt, reducing xenophobia, sexism, racism, protecting the LGBTQI community etc.

Vlad - Putin (Mr KGB) and his oligarch supports - they are dangerous to the US and Western Democracies (flawed as we and they are). I have little problem with the Dems talking about "The Russians" in terms of the government, KGB interference in our election, possibly other cyber attacks etc.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:02 PM   #39
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from The Hill

Four House Judiciary Committee Democrats said in a Friday op-ed that they will "move forward" with an impeachment effort against President Trump.

Democratic Reps. David Cicilline (R.I.), Pramila Jayapal (Wash.), Mary Gay Scanlon (Pa.) and Veronica Escobar (Texas) wrote in an op-ed published in The Atlantic that after former special counsel Robert Mueller's testimony on Capitol Hill this week, "it is up to Congress to act."

"Our investigation will seriously examine all the evidence as we consider whether to bring articles of impeachment or other remedies under our Article I powers," the four Democrats wrote. "Our Constitution requires it. Our democracy depends on it."

The lawmakers noted that the Judiciary panel has filed an application in court to obtain grand jury documents referenced in Mueller's report, adding they plan to obtain "additional underlying evidence, as well as enforce subpoenas for key witness testimony, and broaden our investigations to include conflicts of interest and financial misconduct."

"Congress has patiently tried to work within traditional means to get to the bottom of this extraordinary situation," the lawmakers wrote. "Committees have called witnesses and requested evidence, only to be stonewalled by Trump and his associates. The president's refusal to comply with the Constitution, statutes, and established congressional oversight defies the rule of law."

The Democrats called Mueller's testimony before the House Judiciary and Intelligence panels this week a "watershed moment" that came three months after his team released its 448-page report detailing findings from its two-year investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible obstruction of justice by Trump.

"When the redacted report finally became available to Congress and the American people, it painted a damning picture of a corrupt president who welcomed and encouraged an attack on our country, capitalized on it, and then tried to cover up what he had done," the lawmakers wrote. "At this point, it is up to Congress to act on the evidence of multiple counts of obstruction of justice committed by the president, and to continue our investigation into whether he has committed other high crimes and misdemeanors."

While Mueller's testimony revealed little new information, House Democrats have signaled they are moving forward with lawsuits and subpoenas in the wake of the testimony, even as their caucus remains divided over launching an impeachment inquiry into the president.

House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) has said the panel is seeking the underlying Mueller evidence and that lawmakers would decide whether to recommend articles of impeachment against Trump.
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Old 07-27-2019, 07:50 AM   #40
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https://twitter.com/sikhprof/status/...424418816?s=21

I feel like situations like this are only dry runs for what’s going to happen in the next few years.

And with GOP stacking courts, there won’t be any legal means to stop it
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