US Politics XIX: Just an Echo Chamber Living In Your Heads

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I can’t believe in nearly four years the best we could throw up against Trump is Bernie Sanders.

I will eat crow. I will apologize and own it

But he’s going to lose, and lose bigly.
 
womanfish said:
He's dividing the party to win the nomination, but then expects to receive the support of all the people's he's demonized along the way.
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Sort of like all those centrist Dems who continually insult Bernie and his supporters?
 
nbelcik said:
Sort of like all those centrist Dems who continually insult Bernie and his supporters?
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LOL. I'm talking about the candidate. Not regular people. Do you see any of the "moderate" candidates badmouthing the DNC? Do you hear them criticizing independents? Or other voting blocks. Nope. But Bernie criticizes the very party he's trying to get the nomination for, and criticizes anyone who doesn't get in lock step with his views.

Also, please go on any social media site and post a mild criticism of Bernie, and see what happens.

Do the same on a Biden or Klobuchar post and see what happens.

I think you will see what supporters are causing division.
 
Noting Warren is looking quite weak across the board on the entrance polls. This is coming after her great debate performance. If she finishes 5th or even behind Amy at 6th. I think she needs to drop. Amy too, cause Warren is not registering almost anywhere but Mass and a little in CA on Super Tuesday. Amy, not in any of the states. That would free up about 20% of the national vote.

And Steyer. Yeah, get the hell out.
 
womanfish said:
LOL. I'm talking about the candidate. Not regular people. Do you see any of the "moderate" candidates badmouthing the DNC? Do you hear them criticizing independents? Or other voting blocks. Nope. But Bernie criticizes the very party he's trying to get the nomination for.
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And tries to fucking primary their incumbent President.
 
Irvine511 said:
Lives have been improved and saves by the ACA, and it would have been even more effective had it not been sabotaged by the GOP especially in red states. It’s now very popular, and it became so incrementally. It’s taken 10 years.

I can’t imaging looking at the political backlash the ACA inspired in 2010 and 2014 and not thinking it will inspire the same (and more) if it’s the major policy platform of a general election candidate. I think a “people’s eyes will open once they see” misunderstands something fairly fundamental about not only what might be called a national “character” but also what makes the US a highly unique country, in size, complexity, and personality.

I think it’s a mistake to assume that when Sanders is the nominee and there will be a blue wave resulting in increased House control and 50+ Senate seats.

If nominee Sanders loses in November, and the House swings back to the GOP and the Senate swings further right, what will happen then?

When Ginsberg dies?

When Trump makes a play for a 3rd term?
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If Sanders loses a general election to Trump, there is no hope for this country.
 
womanfish said:
LOL. I'm talking about the candidate. Not regular people. Do you see any of the "moderate" candidates badmouthing the DNC? Do you hear them criticizing independents? Or other voting blocks. Nope. But Bernie criticizes the very party he's trying to get the nomination for, and criticizes anyone who doesn't get in lock step with his views.

Also, please go on any social media site and post a mild criticism of Bernie, and see what happens.

Do the same on a Biden or Klobuchar post and see what happens.

I think you will see what supporters are causing division.
Click to expand...
It goes both ways, we just only talk about the Sanders ones. Because the "vetting" of Sanders didn't bring up shit that actually has an impact, so the chosen attack method has been saying his supporters are too mean.
 
DaveC said:
and here we have exhibit A in the case of "some of you guys are turning into cartoonish parodies the closer sanders gets to the nomination".
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You're single handedly making me like Bernie less every day. And no this isn't me trolling. Just pointing out how exhausting it is to read your posts.
 
Also, in regards to the discussion of Sanders supposedly trying to primary Obama:

[tweet]1230240191325011969[/tweet]

Unless there has been an update in the past three days that I missed, I'm pretty sure that entire story was debunked. This tweet is from the guy who wrote that initial story, by the way.
 
Irvine511 said:
The entire GOP and most of the Democrats don’t agree with you.

What do you base this on?
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Trump's entire appeal was dressing up his act as "outsider status." Sanders completely kneecaps his case against the establishment. Add in the fact that Sanders inspires the youth vote way more than any other Democratic candidate, and is polling the best among minority candidates at this point (Biden still leads with older black voters, but that's really it), and I think it's easy to see why his coalition would be the most broad.

I fundamentally disagree with the supposed settled wisdom that the independents in the middle are what decides elections.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
Trump's entire appeal was dressing up his act as "outsider status." Sanders completely kneecaps his case against the establishment. Add in the fact that Sanders inspires the youth vote way more than any other Democratic candidate, and is polling the best among minority candidates at this point (Biden still leads with older black voters, but that's really it), and I think it's easy to see why his coalition would be the most broad.



I fundamentally disagree with the supposed settled wisdom that the independents in the middle are what decides elections.
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So, he will out-Trump Trump? Which was the same argument in 2016.

When he starts pulling in more than 50% of the primary vote, I’ll begin to see this point. I don’t mean that in a snarky way. That’s what he’s going to have to do for me to have any confidence in his GE chances.
 
mikal said:
What about the suburbs though?
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It is interesting to me how this narrative has flipped. From 2015 to about mid-2019, all I heard about was how Sanders voters were privileged white people. Now, I'm hearing all of this anxiety that Sanders won't get the votes of those very same people.

I would also say that if social democracy is so frightening to white suburbanites that they will vote for Trump instead, the Democratic Party cannot possibly go forth as any sort of legitimate opposition to the Republicans.

I would also remind you that this was precisely what the Clinton campaign thought they brought as a winning coalition in 2016. Remember Chuck Schumer's quote? "For every blue collar Dem we lose in central PA, we will pick up two moderate Republican votes in the Philly suburbs. Same thing in Ohio, Illinois, and Wisconsin." Whoops!

But to answer your question: I don't worry about them because there just aren't that many upper middle class people, and because I don't think they're a reliable voting bloc anyway. If you get the youth and minority vote out, you will render any discomfort felt in those areas moot.
 
God.

I hate to say this. It's why this primary and election is just so anxiety inducing.

But, while I don't agree with a lot of Bernie's tactics. I think the way he is leveraging division between himself/his supporters and lifelong Democrats and the DNC isn't productive and kind of disgusting.

BUT

While I may be harsh on Bernie sometimes, I can't help but have this little nagging thought in the back of my head, that maybe, this might be the right candidate to take on Trump.

I am watching his speech from Texas right now. And while his message and Trump's message is exactly opposite, the enthusiasm is similar, but I would say more so on Bernie's side.
I mean Trump is a showman, a freak show. No matter how disgusting it draws people in. I don't think any other Dem candidate can counter that part of Trump's appeal, except for Sanders.

Let's be honest, you don't see the audience members jumping up and down screaming at a Biden, or Pete, or Amy, or Bloomberg event. A bit at Warren's.

One thing I was waiting to see was how Bernie would do in NV and SC. To really see if he had grown and broadened his support from 2016, or if it was still as narrow. Well, NV has given us a glimpse. He's winning in almost every demo. And if he's not winning it, he's very close.
With a big win here, SC will be shifting even more towards him.

I think this is, and then depending on Super Tuesday is where you will see the shift in the so called "establishment". I think what has made the DNC most nervous in the past was Sanders weakness with minority voters, and obviously with older voters. This looks to be shifting. And if so, Bernie may not have to worry too much about the second ballot at the convention. I think if super delegates see that Bernie actually has broad, representative support across the Dem party. They may go with him much more easily.

I always knew that Sanders had high base enthusiasm. But what NV is foreshadowing, is that he may well be able to translate that energy, to a much broader swath of the electorate. I can even see some softer Trump voters being drawn to that enthusiasm. Right now, if they like "a show" they have Trump and no one else. But if Bernie is putting on another show. Then it could be interesting to see how that shifts the overall electorate.
I think the reservations I still have, is that those college educated suburban voters are going to be the wildcard. And that scares me. And of course the Senate. Also, that while I think Sanders can win, i still don't see any path for him that brings a decisive, kick Trump in the teeth win.
If Bernie was the candidate and Bloomberg sticks with it, and pours money into Senate races, we may be ok. But that remains to be seen.

I await DaveC, and Luckynumber7's accolades. LOL. :wink:
 
Irvine511 said:
So, he will out-Trump Trump? Which was the same argument in 2016.

When he starts pulling in more than 50% of the primary vote, I’ll begin to see this point. I don’t mean that in a snarky way. That’s what he’s going to have to do for me to have any confidence in his GE chances.
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Trump had great success in 2016 hitting Clinton for being part of the establishment, supporting unpopular trade deals, and for a history of scandal. And she couldn't hit him for his sexism properly because of her role in attacking Bill Clinton's accusers. Sanders has none of that baggage. So he note only drums up support from usual non-voters, but he also removes ammunition from Trump's campaign.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
It is interesting to me how this narrative has flipped. From 2015 to about mid-2019, all I heard about was how Sanders voters were privileged white people. Now, I'm hearing all of this anxiety that Sanders won't get the votes of those very same people.

I would also say that if social democracy is so frightening to white suburbanites that they will vote for Trump instead, the Democratic Party cannot possibly go forth as any sort of legitimate opposition to the Republicans.

I would also remind you that this was precisely what the Clinton campaign thought they brought as a winning coalition in 2016. Remember Chuck Schumer's quote? "For every blue collar Dem we lose in central PA, we will pick up two moderate Republican votes in the Philly suburbs. Same thing in Ohio, Illinois, and Wisconsin." Whoops!

But to answer your question: I don't worry about them because there just aren't that many upper middle class people, and because I don't think they're a reliable voting bloc anyway. If you get the youth and minority vote out, you will render any discomfort felt in those areas moot.
Click to expand...

Not to be argumentative here. Just want to point out that the criticism of Sanders in 2016 was that he only attracted young, white, privileged voters. These are not suburban voters. Suburban voters are by and large white, 40+, college educated, professionals.

P.s. - You may actually like my last post. I would like to hear your feedback on my Bernie thoughts.
 
I'm not sure what you mean. I interpret white college educated suburban professionals to be the sort of privileged people we are talking about. Middle to upper middle class professionals who ultimately aren't really impacted by the nastier parts of politics. That to me is what suburbanites are.

And I do appreciate the post! None of this is easy, on that we agree. We disagree on quite a bit, as you know, and I take issue with the idea that it is disgusting to criticize the DNC, who I am no fan of, but that is well thought out, and I think it's refreshing any time someone is willing to take in new information and factor it into their thinking. Those who have been on this forum have seen my transformation from mid-2000s centrist to Obama era liberal to full blown socialist over the last 14 years. The world is changing around us, and we as people also change.

I do regret the times on here when I lose my temper. I feel very viscerally angry about a lot of what has gone on, and it leads me to allow my emotion to overtake me and get inarticulate and at times rude. It is certainly not how I mean to be.
 
Jerry Dunk said:
Trump had great success in 2016 hitting Clinton for being part of the establishment, supporting unpopular trade deals, and for a history of scandal. And she couldn't hit him for his sexism properly because of her role in attacking Bill Clinton's accusers. Sanders has none of that baggage. So he note only drums up support from usual non-voters, but he also removes ammunition from Trump's campaign.
Click to expand...



And Bernie Sanders will raise your taxes and take away your health care while palling around with South American Marxist dictators.

I mean, he has a *ton* of baggage. Yes, he has strengths, and Trumps outsider status should be gone, but these are some rose colored glasses.

Again: I want you to be right. And I want to be wrong, in the way I want to be wrong about, like, global warming.

But from where I sit, this reads more like fantasy than reality.
 
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