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Old 02-18-2020, 12:01 PM   #641
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I think that everyone should watch the first 20 minutes of Lawrence O'Donnell tonight. He makes the point that at certain times in the life of our country and democracy, it is not about voting in favor of everything you are for. But voting for everything you are against.
He gave the example of the defining moment of John McCain's career. Not some bill that he passed. But that he voted against striking down the ACA.

That iconic thumbs down is what we need to do as a country, as a party. Even a split party, we have to agree that nothing. And I mean nothing, even scrapes the surface of the vileness and corruption of what we have now.

I don't know of any liberal/moderate, non-brainwashed, Democrat that would stay home because Sanders got the nomination. I personally don't think he would be a great president. But who gives a shit. He's not Trump.

So it infuriates me to see these privileged assholes, with what I can only assume is very limited understanding of how representative democracy works and its purpose, spout on about not voting for anyone but Bernie.

Full disclosure. I was raised in a cult.

I know how a cult works. I left the cult of my own free will when I was 18. I have studied cults. I see the same traits of many Bernie and Trump followers. I stopped supporting Bernie in 2016 when so many of the interactions I had with Sanders supporters brought back the feelings that I knew so well.

Our country. Our democracy. Our every day lives are at stake here. And I fucking wish I was being hyperbolic. But you all know that I'm not.
If Bernie is the nominee. Great. I will be there with bells on to vote for him. I expect pretty much none of his policies to be implemented. And that's fine. It's not Trump. So I support it. But I think the Senate is doomed if he is the nominee. So other than executive order, there will be nothing done. And the judicial branch will continue to slip from our control.

I await a response from Jerry, defending his sworn leader. Just like I used to defend mine. All those that questioned or criticized the chosen one, were mislead, mistaken, somehow nefarious. It's amazing to see tens of millions of people under this sort of indoctrination.
wonderful post
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Old 02-18-2020, 12:22 PM   #642
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I appreciate womanfish’s story, but I’m not sure he understands peef’s point of view. It isn’t a cult.

Peef probably doesn’t want to hear me say it for the eighth or ninth time, but for 2012 there was a considerable amount of chatter between he and I regarding whether or not throwing away your vote was acceptable. I voted for Gary Johnson. In hindsight, I would have voted for Obama. I enjoyed his second term far more than his first. I’m economically versatile but socially an ardent supporter of fuck-off-I’ll-do-what-I-want. I really didn’t like how Obama played his way, as a politician, to his 2012 platform. But, Peef had some shit that greatly impacted his life too, and that seems to be the source of his intention for no compromise. I’m not saying my 2012 decision was correct, but I know how I felt at the tiem.

You can’t equate someone like that to a cult. It’s also not privilege. I’m not discounting that many who proclaim that Sanders-or-die voters are in fact privileged. I’m merely saying that you’re overlooking a vote that is perhaps single-issue or very highly focused on something that’s very important to that voter. With Peef I think that’s the case.

/I reserve the right to say that I don’t talk for him, but Bernie Sanders is not his Dear Leader.
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Old 02-18-2020, 01:11 PM   #643
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I will admit that I shouldn't project some of my past experiences on certain people. So I apologize to call anyone in particular a cult follower. But I do still think it is the height of privilege to not vote, or vote third party when Trump is the other choice. If it were Romney or something, ok, we'll all survive. But Trump, that brings a new dimension.

My statement on political cultism, definitely skews more towards Trump true believers. He uses many of the tried and true cult leader tactics like shame and humiliation. But on the Bernie side, there are definitely some of his supporters that are ALL in, and have broken from a healthy way of viewing a person running for office. Just a list here to sort of bring that into perspective.

Cults satisfy the human desire for absolute answers

Cults maintain their power by promoting an “us vs. them” mentality

Cult members often have no idea they’re in a cult

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and regards his belief system, and ideology as truth.

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members

The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society

They espouse an all-encompassing belief system

They exhibit excessive devotion to the leader

They avoid criticism of the group and its leader

They feel disdain for non-believers

Emphasis on real or perceived enemies is one way cult leaders keep control

Followers close themselves off from any information that might conflict with that of the leader

Just food for thought. Looking in from the outside on this, from someone who has candidates they like, but isn't locked in to any one of them, it raises my concerns on what is happening on both the Trump and Bernie sides.
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Old 02-18-2020, 01:23 PM   #644
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Once Bernie is the nominee, the workers of the world will unite to seize control of the means of production. And the Senate.
Obviously.

I've often wondered what would happen when a President Sanders is unable to pass any of his proposed legislation. Does he stick to his guns and refuse to compromise? Or does he compromise in order to get things passed through, and more importantly, what is the reaction in his hard core #BernieOrBust base when he's no longer pure?
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Old 02-18-2020, 01:30 PM   #645
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US Politics XIX: Just an Echo Chamber Living In Your Heads

How successful has any president been at passing legislation without a senate, and the Gingrich/Pelosi house obstructionism from the last quarter century?

If logic tells you that Sanders would potentially be curbed by his own party, look no further than the current presidency.
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Old 02-18-2020, 01:45 PM   #646
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How successful has any president been at passing legislation without a senate, and the Gingrich/Pelosi house obstructionism from the last quarter century?

If logic tells you that Sanders would potentially be curbed by his own party, look no further than the current presidency.
I think that is one of the main things that frustrates non-Bernie voters. We know this is the case. But it "feels" like many Sanders supporters don't.

And i do think it's a valid question - Will Bernie only push and accept a non-watered down version of his proposals, or will he be way more flexible than he lets on? Who knows. I'm glad he would be fighting for positive change either way, but I hope that he would accept compromise to make progress in any way he could.
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Old 02-18-2020, 02:03 PM   #647
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He's never shown any compromise his entire tenure in DC. It's probably part of the reason he's accomplished nothing more than renaming a few Post Offices.

Yes he has cosponsored some bills, and he's been absent or voted no on some interesting ones (Gun & Russia related bills).

Overall though he's been a my way or the highway guy.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:35 PM   #648
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He's never shown any compromise his entire tenure in DC. It's probably part of the reason he's accomplished nothing more than renaming a few Post Offices.

Yes he has cosponsored some bills, and he's been absent or voted no on some interesting ones (Gun & Russia related bills).

Overall though he's been a my way or the highway guy.
I don't know. I'm more hopeful. Bernie has wanted to be president for a while. Lord knows he's worked his old ass harder than anyone, and no matter what can be said of a certain set of his supporters, he has built an energized and motivated base.

I'm hoping that if he gets elected, that maybe that absolutism may soften and that he will work to get done all he can. I mean, no president wants to get nothing done.

And if he becomes the nominee. Those people that have supported him for these years will be hitting the ground like no other group in the field. That may be just what is needed to beat Trump.

My biggest hope is that all this worry and hand-wringing is for nothing. That enough people are just so tired of Trump and the thought of him for 4 more years is too much. That truly whoever gets the nom, that they will be swept to victory.
I still worry about the Senate most. But hope that there are enough separate grass roots organizations out there working on state house races, that we will get a victory there too.

Feeling hopeful on all counts, cause why not.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:55 PM   #649
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on a day when Trump has just pardoned 13 people who are, generally, wealthy political insiders who have connections to Trump supporters, you are indeed all about the "me" and not the "we" if you have the opportunity to vote against Trump and choose not to exercise that opportunity to vote.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:00 PM   #650
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I just don't see it with him.

Do you see PA, MI, WI voting for a socialist? There are enough middle to upper middle class white folk who will not want their taxes to go up (even if it's unlikely his policy ever becomes law) or risk any major changes to their healthcare.

No one can know for sure, but we do have the 2018 midterms as the only evidence of how progressives fared in an election. They lost every race. Centrist candidates won, and they won on protecting healthcare and beating Trump.

Maybe people will say enough is enough with Donald Trump. Maybe socialized programs won't matter as much as getting him out.

I just don't have the same hope as you

Edit: I'm still voting blue no matter who
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:01 PM   #651
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My biggest hope is that all this worry and hand-wringing is for nothing. That enough people are just so tired of Trump and the thought of him for 4 more years is too much. That truly whoever gets the nom, that they will be swept to victory.
I still worry about the Senate most. But hope that there are enough separate grass roots organizations out there working on state house races, that we will get a victory there too.

Feeling hopeful on all counts, cause why not.
I am praying this is the case. I do think most Americans are genuinely tired of Trump and have been for some time. He's just so fucking exhausting. And I do think a lot of Americans are genuinely bothered about a lot of what went down with this Ukraine business to some degree or another, and the way the GOP handled it.

I just hope that the exhaustion doesn't translate into apathy. I think a lot of people are genuinely angry and fired up, though. And it's only February. There's still a lot that could happen between now and November, more bombshells regarding this administration that could (and probably will) drop that could further change the winds in our favor, too.

We shall see, I guess.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:42 PM   #652
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Do you see PA, MI, WI voting for a socialist?


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...nsylvania.html



https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep.../Michigan.html



https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...Wisconsin.html
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:59 PM   #653
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Have to agree. I always think that PA may be his biggest struggle. But it does seem that WI is the wildcard. I think if Bernie and his army blanket those states for months. He can do it.
I just wish that he had more states in his back pocket to fall back on...
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:26 PM   #654
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Today Trump has declared himself to be the chief law enforcement officer of the US. Any day now he'll be declaring himself Supreme Leader.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:09 PM   #655
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Biden's spreads are bigger in two of the three listed here. Bernie is also a tie in Florida on RCP, where Biden still wins by 2+.

Their two polls in Ohio are split - one shows a comfortable won for Bernie one shows a 1 point win for Trump. Both have Biden winning.

North Carolina has a 3.5 point average win for Biden. 1 for Sanders.

Arizona has a slight .3 edge for Biden. A 5 point win for Trump over Sanders.

Virginia has a 10 point win for Biden, and a 3 point win for Sanders (including one poll that says Trump takes VA).

Iowa has trump +3 on against Biden, +6 against against Sanders.

All the other swings are fairly comfortable for either the Dems or Trump based on what you'd expect.

They don't have Bloomberg state by state numbers yet.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:14 PM   #656
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And the number one thing that matters yet? Turnout. Great that all these people say they’ll vote for blank, but as 2016 showed, polls were inconclusive for determining a winner.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:15 PM   #657
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US Politics XIX: Just an Echo Chamber Living In Your Heads

The polls do say one thing though: there are more democrats than there are republicans. Surprise!

Err. I mean, people on the left than people on the right.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:18 PM   #658
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And the number one thing that matters yet? Turnout. Great that all these people say they’ll vote for blank, but as 2016 showed, polls were inconclusive for determining a winner.
Right. The polls favored Democrats. Which is why the closer numbers for Sanders makes people very nervous.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:18 PM   #659
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black people!

muslims!

women!

trans people!

which other minority group will be the next one revealed to have been smeared and discriminated against for years by mike bloomberg? tune in tomorrow to find out!
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:26 PM   #660
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Right. The polls favored Democrats. Which is why the closer numbers for Sanders makes people very nervous.

And? They didn’t “favor” the democrats. Most national polls were somewhat accurate. The democrats got more votes. Many people plugged their ears or read RCP averages (meaningless meaningless meaningless, meaningless) and ignored the clear suggestions in the various numbers that it wasn’t a runaway. Voting was at a 20-year low, and during a non-incumbency election. That’s (probably) unprecedented in modern times.

Don’t be so assumptive with polling.
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