US Politics XIX: Just an Echo Chamber Living In Your Heads

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Lives have been improved and saves by the ACA, and it would have been even more effective had it not been sabotaged by the GOP especially in red states. It’s now very popular, and it became so incrementally. It’s taken 10 years.

I can’t imaging looking at the political backlash the ACA inspired in 2010 and 2014 and not thinking it will inspire the same (and more) if it’s the major policy platform of a general election candidate. I think a “people’s eyes will open once they see” misunderstands something fairly fundamental about not only what might be called a national “character” but also what makes the US a highly unique country, in size, complexity, and personality.

I think it’s a mistake to assume that when Sanders is the nominee and there will be a blue wave resulting in increased House control and 50+ Senate seats.

If nominee Sanders loses in November, and the House swings back to the GOP and the Senate swings further right, what will happen then?

When Ginsberg dies?

When Trump makes a play for a 3rd term?



They will blame everyone else. It wouldn’t be he was the wrong candidate, it’ll be the DNC and Tom Perez sabotaged the campaign. Or it’ll go back to if you only would have run him in 2016 and not War-Monger Clinton.

We are going to find out how big this revolution is. My vote doesn’t count being in California, but I’ll still check his name and every other D candidate.

See if people in PA do the same
 
Having a normal one again I see.

Yep, it's getting pretty normal to say fuck you to Bernie.

Hey, try this. On Monday, go into work, and tell your boss, "You better watch your back. Everything here is rigged against me. I'm gonna bring this place down, cause I can run it better myself, you corrupt moron!" And tell us how that works out for ya.

Remember, you saying good things about him doesn't make it true.
 
Bernie just filed for Senate re-election for 2024. As a Democr... LOL. Yeah right. As an Independent.

He just uses the Dem brand, resources and infrastructure for president while he simultaneously shits all over them. Honest, trustworthy, ethical... Yep.
 
Yep, it's getting pretty normal to say fuck you to Bernie.

Hey, try this. On Monday, go into work, and tell your boss, "You better watch your back. Everything here is rigged against me. I'm gonna bring this place down, cause I can run it better myself, you corrupt moron!" And tell us how that works out for ya.

Remember, you saying good things about him doesn't make it true.


I mean, this is a very exaggerated and cartoonish impression and I'm not particularly certain that you're trying to engage in good faith on this one - but even just a bit of democratic worker involvement in the decision making of a business would be a welcome change. Why shouldn't there be democracy within a workplace?


Bernie just filed for Senate re-election for 2024. As a Democr... LOL. Yeah right. As an Independent.

He just uses the Dem brand, resources and infrastructure for president while he simultaneously shits all over them. Honest, trustworthy, ethical... Yep.


I do find it interesting that you dedicate a large portion of your posts here to seething over Bernie (and his not being a proper Democrat, which is fine, whatever - Bernie is not popular amongst the centre/centre-right contingent on this board and I get that) yet comparatively little on a clearly right wing billionaire in Bloomberg.



A right wing billionaire should not be more palatable here than a chance at a very mild social democracy in a country virtually screaming for it.
 
I’m a fan of whoever beats Trump. If Bloomberg were to turn out to be worse, that’s just a shocker and a risk I’d take. He’s near the bottom of my list of the candidates but i understand the power his wealth holds.

Bernie does stupid shit like this


https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1231021453270769664?s=21

He cannot win without the moderate, centrists, establishment Dems. He’s barely won two states over a very centrist unknown mayor. He’s going to need those voters against Trump.

It also shows Bernie isn’t one for uniting. It’s my way or get run over.
 
I saw Dick's video on Instagram. He said he's 20! years older than Bernie and is still mentally sharp and could run for office himself. Bernie should pick him for VP.
 
He cannot win without the moderate, centrists, establishment Dems.


I'm sure they can hold their nose and vote for Bernie like they've been telling the left to do ("lesser of two evils") for their own nominees for decades. :)


And in the (still very unlikely) case that a moderate/establishment/whatever Democrat may choose to vote for Trump over Sanders, then that reflects more poorly on said voter than Sanders himself.
 
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Just coming around to this story:


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/sanders-obama-primary-challenge/606709/


It’s disqualifying. An egomaniacal socialist may be worse than an egomaniacal billionaire.

Sanders should resign now. He is now my last choice pic of all of the candidates, and I will hold my nose and vote for him in the general if he’s the nominee.



Disqualifying? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Yes, Bernie Sanders should resign because he considered running in a primary against Obama but did not.

Do you hear yourself?
 
Disqualifying? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Yes, Bernie Sanders should resign because he considered running in a primary against Obama but did not.

Do you hear yourself?



Resign wrong word. End his campaign is better. Sorry.

If Elizabeth Warren should end her campaign after saying that Sanders said a woman could never be president, if Buttigieg’s work for McKinsey is disqualifying and he should end his campaign because of it, then surely trying to take out the first African-American President is leagues worse than both these things.

But, yes, on a more serious note, this kicks Sanders to the bottom of my list.
 
I mean, this is a very exaggerated and cartoonish impression and I'm not particularly certain that you're trying to engage in good faith on this one - but even just a bit of democratic worker involvement in the decision making of a business would be a welcome change. Why shouldn't there be democracy within a workplace?





I do find it interesting that you dedicate a large portion of your posts here to seething over Bernie (and his not being a proper Democrat, which is fine, whatever - Bernie is not popular amongst the centre/centre-right contingent on this board and I get that) yet comparatively little on a clearly right wing billionaire in Bloomberg.



A right wing billionaire should not be more palatable here than a chance at a very mild social democracy in a country virtually screaming for it.


My first statement was not about giving workers a say or part ownership in companies they work for. It's a statement about how Bernie feels about the DNC (who he currently is working for/get the nomination)
He rails on about how corrupt they are, how he's against them, yet he draws the paycheck from them (metaphorically).
So I'm saying if you exhibited that behavior with your boss/company, you would be out the door.

And as "right wing" as you want to claim Bloomberg is, he delivered more on guns and the environment than Bernie has in the last 35 years in Washington. He supports 15 dollar minimum wage, raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations, pro-choice... So I would say more a left leaning moderate.

I mean somehow, a person that is on par with Obama, has in 4 years become "right wing".

And the vast majority is not screaming for Democratic Socialism. I would say most of the country and majority of the Dem party is somewhere between Biden/Pete and Warren. Those are substantial changes, but not an everything for free, billionaires shouldn't exist system.

I think people tend to forget that we are still America. And I would say 95% of Americans don't want to be full on Europe/Scandinavia. Can we take some examples from them and create a more fair and equitable society? Yes, i believe we can. But we are still unique. Still a place of hope and independence. A place where a great idea, or working a bit harder or smarter than the next guy or gal can take you where you want to go.

So my "seething" at Bernie comes more from the fact that instead of actually joining the Democratic party, working with the DNC, raising money for them, helping to elect downticket Dems. He just uses the name. Spouts rhetoric every day dividing the liberal voters, fueling animosity among young people who in many cases clearly have no idea how or why our system of government was set up the way it was. And then he has the gall to stand up on stage and say, "no matter what, we have to be united against Trump."

He's dividing the party to win the nomination, but then expects to receive the support of all the people's he's demonized along the way.
If you can't see that as the pure bullshit that it is, then you are not being objective.

I don't like disingenuous people. I certainly don't like disingenuous, manipulative, martyrs that are somehow championed as the one pure, true, honest, ethical candidate. It's infuriating.
 
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Resign wrong word. End his campaign is better. Sorry.

If Elizabeth Warren should end her campaign after saying that Sanders said a woman could never be president, if Buttigieg’s work for McKinsey is disqualifying and he should end his campaign because of it, then surely trying to take out the first African-American President is leagues worse than both these things.

But, yes, on a more serious note, this kicks Sanders to the bottom of my list.



Who is saying any of that? Who is saying “Elizabeth Warren should end her campaign after saying that Sanders said a woman could never be President”?

And we both know that’s not what she said.
 
I'm sure they can hold their nose and vote for Bernie like they've been telling the left to do ("lesser of two evils") for their own nominees for decades. :)


And in the (still very unlikely) case that a moderate/establishment/whatever Democrat may choose to vote for Trump over Sanders, then that reflects more poorly on said voter than Sanders himself.

The difference is that moderate Dems actually will hold their nose and vote. Unfortunately you aren't going to pick up any soft Republican support, you are going to lose the suburban advantage that we have built for 3 years.
12% of Bernie supporters didn't hold their nose. And that would be fine if Clinton were running against Romney. But it was Trump. Fucking Trump. That just shows the warped privilege that was present in 2016. (and what we are still seeing today)

And just the fact that you are using the term "lesser of two evils" shows how little has been learned.
If anyone can put Clinton next to Trump and use that phrase. They are lost.

Bernie wouldn't be the lesser of two evils to me. He would be my anti-Trump vote. And I would be secure Bernie would do no harm, other than not allowing us to win the Senate, and have 4 to 8 years of static, while the GOP forever change the Judicial branch, to an unrecognizable and dangerous state.
 
Resign wrong word. End his campaign is better. Sorry.

If Elizabeth Warren should end her campaign after saying that Sanders said a woman could never be president, if Buttigieg’s work for McKinsey is disqualifying and he should end his campaign because of it, then surely trying to take out the first African-American President is leagues worse than both these things.

But, yes, on a more serious note, this kicks Sanders to the bottom of my list.

changing that one word doesn't make it any less of a hilariously asinine take. :lmao:

i mean, come on. he thought about running but didn't and now he should never be allowed to run again. okay.

i swear some of you guys are turning into cartoonish parodies the closer sanders gets to the nomination. lol
 
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The difference is that moderate Dems actually will hold their nose and vote. Unfortunately you aren't going to pick up any soft Republican support, you are going to lose the suburban advantage that we have built for 3 years.
12% of Bernie supporters didn't hold their nose. And that would be fine if Clinton were running against Romney. But it was Trump. Fucking Trump. That just shows the warped privilege that was present in 2016. (and what we are still seeing today)

And just the fact that you are using the term "lesser of two evils" shows how little has been learned.
If anyone can put Clinton next to Trump and use that phrase. They are lost.

Bernie wouldn't be the lesser of two evils to me. He would be my anti-Trump vote. And I would be secure Bernie would do no harm, other than not allowing us to win the Senate, and have 4 to 8 years of static, while the GOP forever change the Judicial branch, to an unrecognizable and dangerous state.

there's always a contingent of 5-10% of every candidate's supporters who won't vote for anyone else and will stay home if it isn't their person on the ballot. it's not a unique thing among sanders supporters.

and you missed his point entirely with the "lesser of two evils" thing.
 
changing that one word doesn't make it any less of a hilariously asinine take. :lmao:

i mean, come on. he thought about running but didn't and now he should never be allowed to run again. okay.

i swear some of you guys are turning into cartoonish parodies the closer sanders gets to the nomination. lol




1. Yes, it makes a difference. I don’t think he should resign as senator, but given the standards laid out in here by the Sanders folks, it’s is disqualifying and he should suspend his campaign now. It’s disqualifying in the “well, this is very good news for John McCain” kind of way. All the other candidates should have ended their campaigns at earlier points. Harris for being a cop. Buttigieg for being a racist CIA plant who worked for McKinsey. Warren for doing the math on M4A. Bloomberg for his existence. There’s no credible candidate in the field other than Sanders.

2. He was talked out of it by Harry Reid. That’s not some spitballing, that’s an idea that had become credible enough for the grownups to put the kibosh on it. Ask yourself: why? Why would you want to primary BARACK OBAMA of all people in 2012? After what happened in 2010? Incumbents who are primaried lose. Did he want Obama to lose? Why? It’s fucking batshittery. Inexcusable.

3. Right. It’s the non-Sanders folks who are the cartoons.
 
1. Yes, it makes a difference. I don’t think he should resign as senator, but given the standards laid out in here by the Sanders folks, it’s is disqualifying and he should suspend his campaign now. It’s disqualifying in the “well, this is very good news for John McCain” kind of way. All the other candidates should have ended their campaigns at earlier points. Harris for being a cop. Buttigieg for being a racist CIA plant who worked for McKinsey. Warren for doing the math on M4A. Bloomberg for his existence. There’s no credible candidate in the field other than Sanders.

lol there's literally one person who's been in here saying anything even remotely approaching this kind of stuff and none of the rest of us "sanders folks" have been disqualifying other candidates like this.

i said i didn't like harris's past as a prosecutor. i never expressed an opinion on buttigieg's military history as far as i can recall and i wouldn't ever say it was disqualifying because, ya know, i was in the army too. i said it was a mistake for warren to release the math, which it clearly was because her poll numbers dropped immediately. absolutely none of that is *disqualifying* in the way you just flew off the handle at sanders. not once have i ever been this stereotype of blubbering rage that you seem to have of the "sanders folks" here and neither has anybody else, aside from a couple angry posts from peef that he apologized for (and explained there was some other shit going on in his life that set him off). you're raging at a made up straw man.

2. He was talked out of it by Harry Reid. That’s not some spitballing, that’s an idea that had become credible enough for the grownups to put the kibosh on it. Ask yourself: why? Why would you want to primary BARACK OBAMA of all people in 2012? After what happened in 2010? Incumbents who are primaried lose. Did he want Obama to lose? Why? It’s fucking batshittery. Inexcusable.

it is inexcusable batshittery that a politician who has open and obvious ambitions to be president would consider running for president against a president who has different politics than he does. okay.

3. Right. It’s the non-Sanders folks who are the cartoons.

lol yeah it kind of is here lately. need i remind you of mikal (definitely NOT one of the "sanders folks") going into full on troll mode at me last weekend because i had the temerity to call him out for being proud of himself for wishing aids on people?
 
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it is inexcusable batshittery that a politician who has open and obvious ambitions to be president would consider running for president against a president who has different politics than he does. okay.




This is the heart of what I’m getting at today.

It is batshittery ... if you care about the country and about broader progressive goals than you do yourself.

But I guess a President Romney would have been preferable to the 8 years of social justice advancements, economic recovery, and wide expansion of health care we saw from 2008-2016?

Think about the ego involved in primary IG the first black president. Who is a liberal. Who made significant progress. It’s not enough for you so you’ll torpedo him and let the GOP win? The fuck is that nonsense?
 
i said it was a mistake for warren to release the math, which it clearly was because her poll numbers dropped immediately.?



Ugh. Not a reaction to what you posted (because I agree with it) but this absolutely strikes me as the most patently unfair thing that has happened in this race - the woman who released transparent math and a transitional (ie realistic) 3 year plan to get to M4A because she was attacked all summer long primarily bu Buttigieg but also the media carrying water for the establishment now doesn’t stand a chance while Bernie has never, ever explained how he will pay for anything, has no realistic plans whatsoever and the other candidates pretty much have taken a “oh well that’s ol’ crazy Bernie for ya!” stance until literally like 5 minutes ago.

Maddening.

His plan has zero chance of passing and being funded as-is. But ok. Let’s pretend revolution and all.
 
Resign wrong word. End his campaign is better. Sorry.

If Elizabeth Warren should end her campaign after saying that Sanders said a woman could never be president, if Buttigieg’s work for McKinsey is disqualifying and he should end his campaign because of it, then surely trying to take out the first African-American President is leagues worse than both these things.

But, yes, on a more serious note, this kicks Sanders to the bottom of my list.
You're missing something.

Liz Warren and Pete Buttigieg are evil, whereas Bernie is socialist Jesus
 
I shouldn’t have used hyperbole and sarcasm today. Please disregard that. Apologies.

But my real and sincere point is this: the knowledge that Sanders wanted to primary Obama in 2012 kicks him to the bottom of my list of D candidates. I will vote for him if he is the nominee because he will be better than Trump, but every benefit of the doubt I’ve given Sanders since 2016 I now rescind.
 
This is the heart of what I’m getting at today.

It is batshittery ... if you care about the country and about broader progressive goals than you do yourself.

But I guess a President Romney would have been preferable to the 8 years of social justice advancements, economic recovery, and wide expansion of health care we saw from 2008-2016?

Think about the ego involved in primary IG the first black president. Who is a liberal. Who made significant progress. It’s not enough for you so you’ll torpedo him and let the GOP win? The fuck is that nonsense?

i don't know why you keep bringing up "the first black president" as if obama's skin colour makes sanders extra evil for considering running against him.

obama and sanders are not so similar in politics that it would have been sanders running against him just for his ego. we saw how different the sanders and clinton campaigns were and we know how closely obama and clinton's politics align. so if he had run, he would have been offering something genuinely different, not just "replace the black guy with me because i should be the president now".

anyways it didn't happen, so like...why care this much about it? all those other things that you say the "sanders folks" are losing their minds about and disqualifying other candidates are at least things that actually happened. harris really was a prosecutor, buttigieg really was in the military and really did work for mckinsey, bloomberg really is a piece of shit. sanders considered doing something. disqualify him for thought crimes i guess?
 
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So looks like Sanders is crushing it in NV.

My prediction...

Sanders 34
Biden 20
Pete 17
Warren 11
Steyer 8
Amy 4/5

Entrance polls have Pete pulling 2% African American voters, Amy I think less than 1...

Anyone else wanna wager?
 
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That would actually be a reasonably good outcome for Biden after the first 2 disastrous showings.
 
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