US Politics XIX: Just an Echo Chamber Living In Your Heads

[womanfish]

just saying, if i was on a forum where literally nobody respected a single one of my opinions and everyone laughed at me every time i posted, i'd probably leave. [emoji2369]

I think you've just perfectly described a troll DaveC. But of course he isn't a troll. No, that's crazy. He just jumps in with insults and racist remarks to see what reaction he can get. NOT a troll.

 

[anitram]

I'm totally shocked to hear that a billionaire CEO treats women like shit. I mean, who would expect it from that crowd?

Having said that, I don't want to hear a single word about Bloomberg's sexual harassment or misogyny from a Trump voter, supporter or apologist. Fuck right off.

Just like the evangelicals should be shunned and never again be allowed to patronize the rest of us with their morality bullshit.

 

[womanfish]

There’s nothing immoral at all in regards to voting for Bernie. If you take his policies (and nothing to do with him), I’d say they’re the most compassionate laws one could pass (and Warren).

It’s more i have no idea what or who Bernie really is. My view is he’s someone who doesn’t wants to always be the outsider. The one throwing rocks at the establishment

But actually pressed to what he would or can do when in a position of power he tends to fold.

It reminds me of that episode of family guy with Rush Limbaugh. Democrats get into power, meaning Brian the bleeding heart liberal should be happy, and instead he’s the opposite. So he switches sides to the GOP/Rush because he must fight against something.

Not saying Bernie would be a Republican (or would he if it meant he could win???)

It’s that no one knows how Bernie is going to lead because he’s never had to do it

Yes, you're onto something there. I disagree that he "doesn't want to always be the outsider." I think that's what he has always wanted to be, and continues that way. Because if you're not an outsider, you would be expected to get things done to make change. Not just say what's wrong.
And with that, it is hard to know how he will lead. If you go by history, we will hear a lot of speeches about what should be done, but probably not see much of it actually be done.

He uses some of the same tricks as Trump. Except with an opposite viewpoint.

He can stir up a crowd and energize a group of followers with very broad, vague statements. In Bernie's case, its about good things. Healthcare, income disparity, the wealthy controlling everything, education, environment, etc...
The followers sweep aside any specifics and just go on the feeling that it gives them. He never wants to be seen as part of "the establishment" even though he has technically been part of DC establishment for 40 years.

Trump, a Manhattan millionaire, wants rural, working class voters to see him as someone that is a hero for their plight, even though Trump not only would never be caught dead actually spending more than an hour somewhere "rural". But has never even done normal rural or even suburban things like mow a lawn, or wash dishes or try and fix a car.

But he uses his big sweeping, non-specific statements, not to stir up hope and a revolution to level the income levels of the country like Bernie, but to stoke fear, hatred of others, scapegoating of filthy immigrants to stir up feelings of grievance and animosity.

So they both are these polarizing "cult of personality" type leaders. One with a base of about 25-30% (now that he's president) and another with a base of maybe 20%. And then there's the 50-55% of everyone else who just want to have some sort of stable, healthy day to day. Good economy, affordable college, affordable housing, affordable childcare, good- affordable medical care.
Not an overheated economy by pumping as many tax breaks for the rich, and stripping important regulations away, screw everything else.
And not a everything for free, but damn, my company isn't performing how it was so I'm getting laid off, and my 401k is flat as a pancake type situation either.

We saw about the best of this, or at least a start of this with Obama. And unfortunately Trump new exactly what racist buttons to push after the Obama years to use it to his advantage. And now we are set back decades.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I'm totally shocked to hear that a billionaire CEO treats women like shit. I mean, who would expect it from that crowd?

Having said that, I don't want to hear a single word about Bloomberg's sexual harassment or misogyny from a Trump voter, supporter or apologist. Fuck right off.

Just like the evangelicals should be shunned and never again be allowed to patronize the rest of us with their morality bullshit.

My point from earlier, but much better expressed .

 

[Hewson]

“It’s a miscalculation as to where the country is at,” Trump ally South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham said. “I think the country is not going to disqualify somebody because of their sexual orientation.”

.

No surprise there.

Would love to see Lindsey finally come out and see how the right and his constituents react.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

Let's steer back to real life and realize that Trump actually IS one of the worst people in America. A rapist, serial sexual assaulter, pathological liar, russian asset, misogynist, racist, neo-nazi supporter, tyrant lover, who is shredding every last corner of democracy left standing. But yeah, Bloomberg is just as bad. I'm guessing Hillary would have been too right? Saying that you would never vote for Bloomberg is so beyond privileged.

Are you going to get upset when many hispanic voters refuse to go out and vote for him because Bloomberg said that every social security card should have finger prints on them so that employers can refuse to hire "illegals" (his words)? Are you going to get upset when many Muslims refuse to vote for Bloomberg because he would regularly have New Yorkers with Muslim names detained for that reason alone? Are you going to get upset when many black voters refuse to vote for Bloomberg because of stop-and-frisk, because he said they should profile 16-to-25 year old black males in almost every case, because he said they "don't know how to behave" in the workforce? Are you going to get upset when there are parents of school-aged children refuse to vote for Bloomberg because he said public schools should have larger class sizes because all you need are fewer, better teachers? Are you going to get upset when older voters take pause because he said we shouldn't treat 95-year-olds with cancer because they can't be productive in society? Are you going to get upset when people who do appreciate democracy cannot bring themselves to vote for someone who is literally trying to buy an election (and understand that there is a massive difference between what Bloomberg is doing right now and typical fundraising, even if that fundraising is also far from ideal)? Are you going to get upset when people question the Democratic Party bending its rules to prop up the campaign of a man who was a Republican until his early 70s?

Saying you can look past the virulent racism, sexism, and conservatism of Michael Bloomberg is privilege.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

You "strongly disagree" with supporting easily the most progressive candidate next to Bernie Sanders. Everyone else is way closer to the centre by wide, wider and widest margins.

So forget about Bloomberg, who is like a wildcard animated suitcase of hundred dollar bills - you find Elizabeth freaking Warren's stances unacceptable.

When it comes down to it, she isn't for single-payer. That's pretty much a non-starter for me. I need a candidate who is willing to state unequivocally that private insurance is the enemy. Private insurance kills people, directly and indirectly, in this country. They need to be destroyed. No more half-measures. It is very much life-and-death.

I was nearly killed by a car. I'm very lucky to have lived and to not have major long term damage. It still cost me thousands of dollars. Even three years ago it would have caused me to have to move back in with my parents because I wouldn't have been able to pay my rent any longer. My brother is diabetic, and the cost of his insulin has skyrocketed over the last decade with no signs of slowing. My cousin has been in intensive care for the last month, and I don't have even a clue how much that is costing my uncle. These people are all insured, and the costs are still debilitating. Any candidate who thinks tweaking things around the edges is going to make a difference is selling a line of bullshit.

She has shown a willingness to cave on crucial issues. I do think she is genuine about wanting to fight corruption at some of the highest levels in finance, and that is admirable, and does place her above the rest of the Democratic field for me. But I don't buy a lot of the rest of her platform. I do think a lot of that stems for her capitulation on healthcare.

If Warren is the nominee, I will very likely vote for her. She is the number two choice for me. But so long as we're still in primary season, I'm going to be critical of her, both of her chances at beating Trump, and of her falling short of the progressive label she claims.

I will not vote for Bloomberg, and I will almost definitely not vote for Buttigieg. If we're going to build a better society for everyone, I can't abide the Democratic Party believing everyone will go along with policies that aren't going to help people. It's immoral, and it's bad for building a long term coalition.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

No, you have to say that anyone who votes for a person that you disagree with lacks integrity.

EVERYONE out there who votes is motivated by self-interest to varying degrees. It's no surprise that college-aged voters like the concept of loan forgiveness or free tuition. Just like it's no surprise that old Evangelicals like the concept of Presidents going on about Jesus like they're at the pulpit. And like upper middle class people care about their tax rates.

The Trump voters have absolutely no qualms about admitting that they're voting for their own interests (guns, no scary brown people, no more immigrants stealing their jobs, etc). The centrists are sort of uncomfortable about it. But the far left appears to be the only group that actually equates morality with their votes and brandishes everyone else as having no integrity, claiming that they're the only ones selflessly voting for the greater good. While they are all voting for issues that are self-serving just like the rest of us.

It's tiresome.

This misses the point. The point is that we want to vote for everyone's interests. Yes, that includes our own interests. But we vote for everyone's at the same time. That's the whole point of universality. No means testing, no half measures ... sweeping programs that rebuild the social safety net.

Voters are always going to vote for their own interest. I'm not a martyr for voting for the left. I don't claim to be one, I don't want to be thought as one, and frankly I think anyone viewing it through that lens is missing all of what we're trying to build. The point is to show voters that there is another way, one that has been largely ignored in this country for many decades. One that presents everyone with better opportunities and eliminates life-ruining medical and financial problems.

I don't support these policies because I think I'm more moral than those who don't. I want all of you in here who dislike me because I became a leftist over the last four years to have better lives, and I want all of you to have opportunities for personal tragedy greatly reduced by the things I support. I think some of you have been fucking assholes to me, and probably while doing so came away from those interactions thinking I'm the fucking asshole because I was angry. That's fine. I want you to have Medicare For All too. I want your kids to go to college for free. Hell, I want that for pieces of shit like the Trump's. Universality means everyone's on the same level.

That said, I do think part of the resentment of the left comes from a place of discomfort for those in the center and center-left, where they dislike the idea that what they support may not be as moral as they once thought. What was once hand-waved away as unrealistic isn't going away any longer, and the more prevalent the discussion becomes, the harder it becomes to ignore. You say the left is condescending to the center. I think it's actually that the center and center-left has been doing that to the right, and is struggling to reconcile that with a burgeoning leftism that doesn't allow the same framing that they got comfortable in during the Bush and Obama years.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

When it comes down to it, she isn't for single-payer. That's pretty much a non-starter for me. I need a candidate who is willing to state unequivocally that private insurance is the enemy. Private insurance kills people, directly and indirectly, in this country. They need to be destroyed. No more half-measures. It is very much life-and-death.

I was nearly killed by a car. I'm very lucky to have lived and to not have major long term damage. It still cost me thousands of dollars. Even three years ago it would have caused me to have to move back in with my parents because I wouldn't have been able to pay my rent any longer. My brother is diabetic, and the cost of his insulin has skyrocketed over the last decade with no signs of slowing. My cousin has been in intensive care for the last month, and I don't have even a clue how much that is costing my uncle. These people are all insured, and the costs are still debilitating. Any candidate who thinks tweaking things around the edges is going to make a difference is selling a line of bullshit.

She has shown a willingness to cave on crucial issues. I do think she is genuine about wanting to fight corruption at some of the highest levels in finance, and that is admirable, and does place her above the rest of the Democratic field for me. But I don't buy a lot of the rest of her platform. I do think a lot of that stems for her capitulation on healthcare.

If Warren is the nominee, I will very likely vote for her. She is the number two choice for me. But so long as we're still in primary season, I'm going to be critical of her, both of her chances at beating Trump, and of her falling short of the progressive label she claims.

I will not vote for Bloomberg, and I will almost definitely not vote for Buttigieg. If we're going to build a better society for everyone, I can't abide the Democratic Party believing everyone will go along with policies that aren't going to help people. It's immoral, and it's bad for building a long term coalition.

Preach. Amen. This!

Ok but jokes aside about the idea of only responding to what we agree with... while I can’t share anything near your life threatening experience, I still feel it’s relatable. Concussed at 18 in high school playing flag football in an accidental head to head collision. Went to the ER and confirmed there was no internal bleeding and was sent home after 1 hour and an MRI. $1500. Insurance covered $0. Broke my ankle as an intern at 23 when I was making approximately minimum wage, went to the hospital and got an x ray. 30 minutes in, told it was broken, sent me home on crutches, $1200. Insurance covered $0. There was a separate ER incident in between those ages but I’ll save you graphic details, $2200, insurance paid $0.

At none of those ages did I have the ability to pay off such debt. Absolutely crippling debt for almost no time at the hospital and little actual care provided. MRIs don’t cost $1500. Motrin isn’t $50. Insurance companies and hospitals go to war with each other over which business can be more profitable with your money, running statistics over what price points they can set versus how many will actually pay their bills. If you don’t pay your bills? 7 years of destroying your credit. So when you’ve racked up $40,000 of student debt but you can’t get interest rates below 6.5%? Doesn’t matter how high paying the job is on the way out. My ability to save for a home and get that “american dream” is nonexistent.

I’m in a financially great place and yet still, the healthcare system has fucked me over because some assholes are capitalizing on something I have no option but to purchase.

I don’t care what anyone thinks about capitalism or socialism or anything like that. Capitalization on goods and services that are essential towards living is immoral. Dear capitalists: true economic freedom in the american dream is not from a flip of a coin of how lucky or not you were with your health. And if anyone has followed my posts enough here, I don’t necessarily like or dislike capitalism - I’m just speaking of this particular instance. It’s not a bias for or against any ideology.

 

[Bluer White]

I'm totally shocked to hear that a billionaire CEO treats women like shit. I mean, who would expect it from that crowd?

Having said that, I don't want to hear a single word about Bloomberg's sexual harassment or misogyny from a Trump voter, supporter or apologist. Fuck right off.

Just like the evangelicals should be shunned and never again be allowed to patronize the rest of us with their morality bullshit.

The long knives have been out for Mayor Bloomberg the last few days.

Oppo research and all that. It's picking up.

 

[DaveC]

reposting this since it's pretty damn important and seems to have been either lost in the shuffle or ignored over the weekend:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext


Improving the prognosis of health care in the USA
Prof. Alison P Galvani PhD, Alyssa S Parpia MPH, Eric M Foster, Burton H Singer PhD, Meagan C Fitzpatrick, PhD
Published: February 15, 2020

Summary

Although health care expenditure per capita is higher in the USA than in any other country, more than 37 million Americans do not have health insurance, and 41 million more have inadequate access to care. Efforts are ongoing to repeal the Affordable Care Act which would exacerbate health-care inequities. By contrast, a universal system, such as that proposed in the Medicare for All Act, has the potential to transform the availability and efficiency of American health-care services. Taking into account both the costs of coverage expansion and the savings that would be achieved through the Medicare for All Act, we calculate that a single-payer, universal health-care system is likely to lead to a 13% savings in national health-care expenditure, equivalent to more than US$450 billion annually (based on the value of the US$ in 2017). The entire system could be funded with less financial outlay than is incurred by employers and households paying for health-care premiums combined with existing government allocations. This shift to single-payer health care would provide the greatest relief to lower-income households. Furthermore, we estimate that ensuring health-care access for all Americans would save more than 68 000 lives and 1·73 million life-years every year compared with the status quo.

 

[Irvine511]

Like others in here, I’ve had a freak, near fatal, potentially crippling accident they landed me in the ICU for almost a week. I had private insurance I purchased on my own with premiums I watched increase every year. I had real bills, but they were payable. I have never had cause to complain about my health insurance, but don’t for a second think I’ve been lucky in life and haven’t had bad things happen. I have.

Insurance has problems, but what I object to is the idea that the only way to get single payer insurance is to nominate a candidate who runs on single payer insurance. Thinking that a maximalist approach is the best way to yield maximalist results is just flat earth thinking, and could likely inspire a backlash that results in getting nothing, or something even worse. The stridency comes off as little more than a moral flex, and assumes the worst of people who may share the same goals but disagree on tactics.

 

[anitram]

If Warren is the nominee, I will very likely vote for her.

The fact that you're not at 100% for Warren vs Donald Trump is frankly, appalling.

He is basically half brain-dead and degenerating at an exponential rate before our eyes, while continuing to be propped up by a criminal cabal.

If his is how even a fraction of the 30% who support Bernie will behave, then the whole world is fucked, honestly.

 

[BVS]

The fact that you're not at 100% for Warren vs Donald Trump is frankly, appalling.



He is basically half brain-dead and degenerating at an exponential rate before our eyes, while continuing to be propped up by a criminal cabal.



If his is how even a fraction of the 30% who support Bernie will behave, then the whole world is fucked, honestly.

THIS

It can’t be repeated enough.

 

[Bluer White]

The fact that you're not at 100% for Warren vs Donald Trump is frankly, appalling.

He is basically half brain-dead and degenerating at an exponential rate before our eyes, while continuing to be propped up by a criminal cabal.

If his is how even a fraction of the 30% who support Bernie will behave, then the whole world is fucked, honestly.

Which state do you vote in ?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

The fact that you're not at 100% for Warren vs Donald Trump is frankly, appalling.

He is basically half brain-dead and degenerating at an exponential rate before our eyes, while continuing to be propped up by a criminal cabal.

If his is how even a fraction of the 30% who support Bernie will behave, then the whole world is fucked, honestly.

Incidentally, John Oliver did an entire segment on Medicare for All last night. I'm fully on board with full on single-payer, myself-I've told my story in here a few times about all the hell my family went through in the pre-Obamacare era, and at this point, if we need to do a major overhaul to get that to happen, I say go for it if we can.

But I will vote for any Democrat that gets the nomination, because whether they want to go full throttle with single-payer or take more incremental steps to get there, at the end of the day, I know that either way at least that's an issue they're talking about and concerned about, and still do give a damn about, at the very least, trying to make sure that people like me and my family won't go through that kind of hell again. Unlike the GOP, who's made their stance on sick people abundantly clear, and who continues to have absolutely zero plans regarding healthcare other than "don't get sick or poor". The choice could not be any clearer at this point. It really couldn't.

On a different topic for a moment, so this happened:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-judges-association-calls-emergency-220244852.html

WASHINGTON – A national association of federal judges has called an emergency meeting Tuesday to address growing concerns about the intervention of Justice Department officials and President Donald Trump in politically sensitive cases, the group’s president said Monday.

Philadelphia U.S. District Judge Cynthia Rufe, who heads the independent Federal Judges Association, said the group “could not wait” until its spring conference to weigh in on a deepening crisis that has enveloped the Justice Department and Attorney General William Barr.

“There are plenty of issues that we are concerned about,” Rufe told USA TODAY. “We’ll talk all of this through.”

Rufe, nominated to the bench by President George W. Bush, said the group of more than 1,000 federal jurists called for the meeting last week after Trump criticized prosecutors' initial sentencing recommendation for his friend Roger Stone and the Department of Justice overruled them.

 

[anitram]

Which state do you vote in ?

How is that relevant to my comment that the whole world is fucked?

It's been a number of years since I've lived in the US (in an evil, blue state, obv).

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Nevada poll with full breakdowns...

Doesn’t look good for Biden. Also, Sanders doesn’t appear to be having any issues with women or minorities, just with other old people.


http://filesforprogress.org/datasets/2020/2/nv/nv_2_17_2020.pdf

 

[mikal]

Bloomberg Smash


https://twitter.com/johnvmoore/status/1229504544704520192?s=21

 

[LuckyNumber7]

That was an incredibly incoherent and stupid attempt at tying the Sanders campaign to the Trump campaign.

Much like “Sanders is a sexist!!!,” you seem like you’ll believe what you want to believe, no matter how abused. The irony is that you’re equating Sanders supporters to Trump supporters, yet you’re doing what a Trump supporter does.

Donald Trump’s campaign is clearly pushing Sanders for the nomination because he is afraid of Biden and Bloomberg. There is no fucking relationship between the Trump campaign and the Sanders campaign.

 

[DaveC]

Bloomberg Smash


https://twitter.com/johnvmoore/status/1229504544704520192?s=21View attachment 12407View attachment 12406

wow leftists called one of the top-10 richest people on earth who is currently attempting to purchase the office of head of state of the most powerful nation in the world "an oligarch".

how dare they say such objectively truthful things.

 

[mikal]

Dave C smash!

 

[LuckyNumber7]

It’s okay don’t respond, just do a mic drop over your failed punchline.

 

[anitram]

Nevada poll with full breakdowns...

Doesn’t look good for Biden. A[/url]

And still plenty of time for him to fall below Klobuchar and Steyer.

 

[mikal]

It’s okay don’t respond, just do a mic drop over your failed punchline.

Not sure if you’re talking to me? Or where the punchline was. I just posted a press release and then made fun of Dave C, our forum’s very own Rudy Giuliani defender.

 

[DaveC]

Dave C, our forum’s very own Rudy Giuliani defender.

if you're going to just make shit up about me i think you can probably do better than that.

then again, you really struggled at poopy-baby "no u" comebacks yesterday so maybe not.

 

[mikal]

if you're going to just make shit up about me i think you can probably do better than that.

What are your views on Lev Parnas? Do you find the whole thing really sad?

 

[DaveC]

i can't imagine what you think you're accomplishing here with this smarmy act.

 

[mikal]

i can't imagine what you think you're accomplishing here with this smarmy act.

Wait. I thought it was poopy baby.

 

[womanfish]

The fact that you're not at 100% for Warren vs Donald Trump is frankly, appalling.

He is basically half brain-dead and degenerating at an exponential rate before our eyes, while continuing to be propped up by a criminal cabal.

If his is how even a fraction of the 30% who support Bernie will behave, then the whole world is fucked, honestly.

And sadly, these same people don't realize that we have Trump, at least in part, because of them.
Thank you. The fact that anyone can't learn their lesson after having three and half years of Trump, is truly lost. And a cult follower at best.