US Politics XIV: Vote for Pedro

[Irvine511]

Yelling “Trump” is of course political — it was his department of Justice that changed the rules and increased suffering and cruelty in order to look tough to his racist base. He took a policy that was narrowly used and made it the standard. You can try and move the goalposts all you want, but no one will fall for it.

I think your posts are a good thing to watch out for heading into 2020, it’s kind of an updated version of “but her emails ...”

Mrs Garrison can tell you all about that.

 

[Irvine511]

I never said Obama separated families did I?, I never said Trumps family separation policy was right did I, because it's not

You said they were the same, that Trump was just continuing an Obama policy. I’ve pointed out to you the ways in which this is wrong, and that it’s how the administration is trying to excuse the suffering it is creating.

So you were either misinformed, you misunderstood, you were misled, you lied, or you’d scrambled around to look for information that you could assemble in order to construct a false equivalency.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Yelling “Trump” is of course political — it was his department of Justice that changed the rules and increased suffering and cruelty in order to look tough to his racist base. He took a policy that was narrowly used and made it the standard. You can try and move the goalposts all you want, but no one will fall for it.

I think your posts are a good thing to watch out for heading into 2020, it’s kind of an updated version of “but her emails ...”

Mrs Garrison can tell you all about that.

Obama's policies were also cruel and were enforced more than Trumps. The difference is the courts stepped in on Obama.

how is it different?

While it’s true that Obama did, during a 2014 surge in migration, implement wide-scale detention of families, but only under extraordinary circumstances and predicated under two conditions, 1) border officials felt the parents or guardians were a threat to the children, or 2) whether the adults had prior criminal convictions.

.

Obama detained families together — until the courts stepped in

Obama’s response to the 2014 “border crisis” was to crack down on the people he could crack down on: adults, including asylum seekers, and families.

At the time, there were special protections (under the 1997 Flores settlement) that stopped DHS from keeping unaccompanied immigrant children in detention, but not children who had come to the US with their parents. So the Obama administration attempted to tamp down the number of Central American families seeking asylum in the US by keeping families in detention and processing and deporting them as quickly as possible.

Immigration advocates challenged the policy of family detention under the Flores settlement. Judges agreed with them — in large part because it said the Obama administration was out of bounds in detaining migrant families for the purpose of “deterrence.” (As NBC’s Benjy Sarlin has pointed out, that’s why certain Trump administration officials have been careful not to say that family separation is a deterrent, or even a policy, now.)


BTW this is from a source you posted. It was everybody not under extraordinary circumstances

 

[Magnus Maximus]

You said they were the same, that Trump was just continuing an Obama policy. I’ve pointed out to you the ways in which this is wrong, and that it’s how the administration is trying to excuse the suffering it is creating.

So you were either misinformed, you misunderstood, you were misled, you lied, or you’d scrambled around to look for information that you could assemble in order to construct a false equivalency.

No I only said the conditions were the same. I never said the policy was the same.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

i think you're a religious person who is trying to construct an intellectual framework by which you're going to justify a vote for Trump in 2020, when you know that everything he stands for is antithetical to so-called Christian values.

but it's just going to come down to abortion. you can justify any behavior by saying that at least it isn't an abortion.

I am a deeply Religious Person, I am a Traditional Roman Catholic. I will never vote for a pro abortion candidate. But that doesn't mean I will vote Republican.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Yelling “Trump” is of course political — it was his department of Justice that changed the rules and increased suffering and cruelty in order to look tough to his racist base.

So you agree there was suffering before Trump. It only took someone you didn't like to get into Office before you cared. Since the suffering in your mind was less under Obama that's ok.

What is the threshold of suffering it takes for you to care?

So the suffering before Trump doesn't count, only suffering after Trump.

 

[Irvine511]

You have quite a way of putting words in someone’s mouth.

I can do the same — I’m willing to bet you had no idea what was going on at the boarder in 2014 and you care now because it’s giving you a feeling of moral superiority and being above politics.

You’ll for that criticism of Obama’s boarder policies were coming from THE LEFT, and nowhere else. You’ll find lots of common ground in here with some of our far Left posters who think Obama was basically a Republican and only socialism can save us.

You’ll also note the “processing and deporting as quickly as possible.” NOT the Trump policy. And you’ll notice the Obama administration STOPPED when told to.

Big differences. But you’re focused on viewing things as narrowly as possible, so I don’t imagine nuance and context will make much of a difference.

 

[Irvine511]

Obama's policies were also cruel and were enforced more than Trumps. The difference is the courts stepped in on Obama.



BTW this is from a source you posted. It was everybody not under extraordinary circumstances

Where are you getting this? This is not true. Sessions himself said he was CHANGING the Obama policy. If it was the same policy what would there be to change?

 

[Magnus Maximus]

You have quite a way of putting words in someone’s mouth.

I can do the same — I’m willing to bet you had no idea what was going on at the boarder in 2014 and you care now because it’s giving you a feeling of moral superiority and being above politics.

You’ll for that criticism of Obama’s boarder policies were coming from THE LEFT, and nowhere else. You’ll find lots of common ground in here with some of our far Left posters who think Obama was basically a Republican and only socialism can save us.

You’ll also note the “processing and deporting as quickly as possible.” NOT the Trump policy. And you’ll notice the Obama administration STOPPED when told to.

Big differences. But you’re focused on viewing things as narrowly as possible, so I don’t imagine nuance and context will make much of a difference.

You went to the border, then God bless you for it, and thank you.

You are right Obama did stop when ordered.

I just think Politics sometimes or really most of the time gets in the way of what really needs to be done. I just get sick of hearing it all Trumps fault, he has become this Bogey man who is just responsible for all the worlds ill's. If he was really as powerful or influential as the left makes him out to be we would all be in real trouble.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Where are you getting this? This is not true. Sessions himself said he was CHANGING the Obama policy. If it was the same policy what would there be to change?

It was from Vox (not fox) didn't you post that link; if not I am sorry for misquoting you.

I think Sessions statements were political, hyperbole, not really changing anything. (That's my opinion)

 

[BEAL]

Everything is Obama’s fault.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

The arguments you think you’re effortlessly constructing are repeated endlessly in right wing media. Whether wittingly or not, and I’d say wittingly, you arent offering any sort of “third way” or “honest broker” insights or observations. You’re trying to dress them up as such, but it’s not hard to see through.

We aren’t talking about “conditions” — we are talking about a clear, announced changes in policy under Sessions that created a crisis where there was none before. It was designed to do two things 1) terrorize potential migrants with pictures of jails children, 2) send a “we got tough” message to Trump’s racist base, since they are gradually realizing that Trump is too inept to broker anything including his “wall.”

The change in policy — WHICH WAS A CHANGE THAT HAPPENED UNDER JEFF SESSIONS AND MARKED A DEPARTURE FROM OBAMA-ERA POLICY — was all about optics.

Using innocent children as terror optics.

This. I love how the right will constantly cheer Trump's "tough on immigration" policies, but when they're confronted about supporting them, they keep trying to pass the buck off and say it was something started by the prior administration. No. You guys think this is such a great policy, own it, then.

There's also the fact that since taking office, Trump has constantly tried to dismantle every single policy and action that Obama put into place...yet somehow it's this particular issue that he suddenly supposedly decides he wants to follow in Obama's footsteps on? Okay.

And weren't people on the right complaining for years that Obama was too soft on immigrants? Now they're trying to claim his administration did the same awful stuff this one is. So which narrative is true, guys? Make up your mind.

 

[BEAL]

I’m tired of the lazy whataboutism arguments

What about Obama’s policy or being told by ACLU

Whether people were outraged enough back then doesn’t matter. We can’t change the past.

So why are we always focused on it ? We can be outraged after we start fixing this now

 

[Vlad n U 2]

You’ll find lots of common ground in here with some of our far Left posters who think Obama was basically a Republican and only socialism can save us.

You only need to read the WWII argument earlier in this thread to know this won't be true.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Q

I agree it's a human rights abuse, if this is going on its wrong, very wrong and must be stopped.

I didn't read all of it, was there a statement from a democrat congress member on this? Was the GOP at fault during the Obama years? There were more detentions and deportations under Obama than Trump.

We as a people don't value life, when you don't value life this is what you get.

As for making things better for minorities, I agree. There should be childcare and fully funded pre K so women can work, and support their families. We should increase opportunity in Urban environments so jobs can increase and we won't have a break down of the minority family. I agree on all these things.

But do two wrongs make a right?

Can I murder someone because of my station in life?

Is easy access to abortion the easy way out?

Yeah it's hard, I get it.

You know my wife and I had a child in College, she dropped out and worked 40 hours a week. I stayed in carried a full class load, Completed ROTC, was in the Army Reserve, worked at night waiting tables, Graduated and was commissioned Active Duty. Yeah it sucked and it was hard, but it's doable, very doable.

Did we have everything we wanted, no we were dirt poor, small apartment, beat up cars, but we stuck it out. Now many years later (and 5 kids) we see we were very blessed, we didn't see that at the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah here's another man (no uterus here) trying to tell us Women How-To-Run-Our-Lives.
And how he and his wife sacrificed.
That was you and your wife's choice.

You don't get to tell other women when (or even IF) she should have a child (children).
Women aren't truly free unless they control their
reproductive life.
A women with an already lived life IS more important than a fetus. She will decide when/if she wants to have children so she increase her chances of being the best mother possible!

And BTW (if it hasn't mentioned already) a group of cells just beginning to "pulse" in a rhythm is not a heart!

Your can take your patriarchal (and possibly theocratic) notions and shove them.

Oh, and especially if you are white- just how much do you really care about black women. IF particularly institutional racism (and wealth disparities) were way less less than it is now, maybe they'd have less abortions. Maybe it's also an issue of available birth control.
While Republicans don't have a total lock on racism... a lot of their actions
and trump's actions and words sure smack of it.

One more thing - I value Life plenty.

 

[dazzledbylight]

BEAL

For the moment i can go find my Free Call Congress 800 numbers and call my Congressional people about the horrible things happening at the border and near by.

Before arriving here, i just read a piece saying some of these detention facilities are same ones used to intern the Japanese-Americans during WWll. gak! Will do more research to be sure.

 

[BEAL]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1142287603531735040?s=21

I think this is a good precursor to 2020 if Trump were to lose

There is so much crazy to this story. A bill on climate change, the GOP state congress members flee the state, the governor sends the police to apprehend them

Leading GOP senator openly states they will open fire on the police if they approach

GOP members are now protected by right wing “militia” (they’re terrorists in my view), and these armed crazies shut down the capital.

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

https://us.yahoo.com/news/oregon-statehouse-shut-down-lawmakers-171252495.html

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1142287603531735040?s=21

I think this is a good precursor to 2020 if Trump were to lose

There is so much crazy to this story. A bill on climate change, the GOP state congress members flee the state, the governor sends the police to apprehend them

Leading GOP senator openly states they will open fire on the police if they approach

GOP members are now protected by right wing “militia” (they’re terrorists in my view), and these armed crazies shut down the capital.

Haha looks like it’s already been posted! Sorry for my post! I could not believe my eyes at what I was reading! Just when you think the republicans can’t get any more shocking, they top themselves!

 

[Jerry Dunk]

I just think Politics sometimes or really most of the time gets in the way of what really needs to be done. I just get sick of hearing it all Trumps fault, he has become this Bogey man who is just responsible for all the worlds ill's. If he was really as powerful or influential as the left makes him out to be we would all be in real trouble.

It is not all Trump's fault; he's a symptom, not the virus. There is no defense of him, of course. He is a cruel and stupid man, concerned only with getting himself wealth and attention. But you are correct that he is not the only cause of what is going on.

What you are incorrect about is the fact that we would "all" be in real trouble. The white people of means won't deal with the consequences.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Q

Yeah, yeah, yeah here's another man (no uterus here) trying to tell us Women How-To-Run-Our-Lives.
And how he and his wife sacrificed.
That was you and your wife's choice.

You don't get to tell other women when (or even IF) she should have a child (children).
Women aren't truly free unless they control their
reproductive life.
A women with an already lived life IS more important than a fetus. She will decide when/if she wants to have children so she increase her chances of being the best mother possible!

And BTW (if it hasn't mentioned already) a group of cells just beginning to "pulse" in a rhythm is not a heart!

Your can take your patriarchal (and possibly theocratic) notions and shove them.

Oh, and especially if you are white- just how much do you really care about black women. IF particularly institutional racism (and wealth disparities) were way less less than it is now, maybe they'd have less abortions. Maybe it's also an issue of available birth control.
While Republicans don't have a total lock on racism... a lot of their actions
and trump's actions and words sure smack of it.

One more thing - I value Life plenty.

First, life begins at conception

Second, There is a mother and a Father if they are in a committed relationship the choice should be equal.

Third, yes you don't know my race

Fourth the fact that abortions out strip births among Black and Latino women doesn't concern you at all? You don't think there are some Eugenics at play here? It doesn't concern you that abortion is promoted and encouraged in minority communities?


Huh pretty scary that someone could be that apathetic


So lets think logically, if most Republicans were racists they would want more minorities to get abortions, that would in theory lessen the numbers of Blacks and Latinos. Why would they want to ban abortion when it effects so disproportionately minority women. Then why wouldn't democrats oppose it, it seems they would got more voters-- doesn't make sense to me -

As Carlin said:

I've noticed that most of these feminists are white, middle-class women. They don't give a shit about black women's problems. They don't care about Latino women. All they're interested in is their own reproductive freedom, and their pocketbooks.

George Carlin

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Lmao what a spin

 

[dazzledbylight]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1142287603531735040?s=21

I think this is a good precursor to 2020 if Trump were to lose

There is so much crazy to this story. A bill on climate change, the GOP state congress members flee the state, the governor sends the police to apprehend them

Leading GOP senator openly states they will open fire on the police if they approach

GOP members are now protected by right wing “militia” (they’re terrorists in my view), and these armed crazies shut down the capital.

https://us.yahoo.com/news/oregon-statehouse-shut-down-lawmakers-171252495.html

Yes, I started to hear about this ?Thurs or Fri !
I haven't heard the latest (today's) news.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

Maybe you should ask why people feel disenfranchised? Because you can label them as racists or right wing nut jobs, but does that help at all? You cant force your ideas on them, just like they can't force their ideas on you.


In some state (Illinois for instance) The Urban area treats the rural area's of the state like their serfs. Chicago completely abuses the down state and takes a good share of the tax revenue from the rural and agrarian based communities. Maybe that's how people feel in Portland. There is a tyranny of the majority, and can crush the individual.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

It is not all Trump's fault; he's a symptom, not the virus. There is no defense of him, of course. He is a cruel and stupid man, concerned only with getting himself wealth and attention. But you are correct that he is not the only cause of what is going on.

What you are incorrect about is the fact that we would "all" be in real trouble. The white people of means won't deal with the consequences.

That's kind of like the political nihilism Carlin joked about when he said:

Dear Political Activists,
All your chanting, marching, voting, picketing, boycotting and letter-writing will not change a thing; you will never right the wrongs of this world. The only thing your activity will accomplish is to make some of you feel better. Such activity makes powerless people feel useful, and provides them the illusion that they're making a difference. But it doesn't work. Nothing changes. The powerful keep the power. That's why they're called the powerful.

This is similar to people's belief that love can overcome everything, that it has some special power. It doesn't. Except one on one. One on one, love is incredibly powerful. It is a beautiful thing. But if love had any power to change the world, it would have prevailed by now. Love can't change the world. It's nice. It's pleasant. It's better than hate.
But it has no special power over things. It just feels good. Love yourself, find another person to love and feel good.
Love, George

George Carlin

 

[dazzledbylight]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1142287603531735040?s=21

I think this is a good precursor to 2020 if Trump were to lose

There is so much crazy to this story. A bill on climate change, the GOP state congress members flee the state, the governor sends the police to apprehend them

Leading GOP senator openly states they will open fire on the police if they approach

GOP members are now protected by right wing “militia” (they’re terrorists in my view), and these armed crazies shut down the capital.

https://us.yahoo.com/news/oregon-statehouse-shut-down-lawmakers-171252495.html

Yes, I started to hear about this ?Thurs or Fri! I was like whaaaa!!??
I will check NPR later I haven't yet heard the latest (today's) news.

 

[dazzledbylight]

MM

Later for a more thorough reply.

Quickly- there are many Black and Latina Women who support choice for themselves and all women .

And should you say that they've been bamboozled by White Women - then you are basically saying that they aren't smart enough to think for themselves.

 

[dabiggestu2fan]

Yes, I started to hear about this ?Thurs or Fri! I was like whaaaa!!??
I will check NPR later I haven't yet heard the latest (today's) news.

It is scary to think what might happen if trump doesn’t win 2020. I bet the right wing militia is just waiting to cause all kinds of problems not to mention all the hardcore trumpbase too.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Imagine trump losing and then running in 2024 lmao.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

God willing, after Trump leaves office he and his family will all be spending the rest of their lives in jail, so if that's the case, we'll never have to worry about anyone from that family darkening the White House steps ever again.