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Old 06-20-2019, 05:45 PM   #621
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But back to the Original point: Pence was right


show me were socialism helped win WW1- No where because all of Russia's major victories were carried out be Tsarits, like I said there could be some in transition, but if I recall the transitional GVT wasn't socialist in ruled from like March to October, with the USSR not fully established until 21 or 22.


WW2: Yes the war in Russia caused a lot of loses to the Germans and the Soviets lost a lot of soldiers, However it was the US industrial base that won WW2 period end of story.


So yes Pence is right
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:50 PM   #622
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you didn't catch that "mistake" earlier because i didn't say that, at all, in any fashion. at least you've proved my theory that you didn't actually read what i said.
Really you didn't say this: and before you say well I meant Tsarist Russia, you know I was referring to Socialist Russia as this has been the whole content of the debate.


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3. Socialism had no role in WW1 in fact it almost caused the west to lose the war (but also proving they could win with out Russia) the entente did not "win without russia". in fact they almost certainly would not have won without russia, as the thousands of soldiers fighting on the eastern front against the russian empire would have been able to fight in verdun and flanders. the brusilov offensive almost broke the entire eastern german army and the russians advanced so far that they really only had to stop because they lost momentum due to outrunning their supply lines. even after the revolution and the treaty of brest-litovsk the germans still had to keep hundreds of thousands of soldiers in the occupation zones in poland, the baltics, and ukraine and somehow that all counts as "winning without russia". lmao please.
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:53 PM   #623
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with reading comprehension skills like this there is absolutely zero chance you are a professional academic of any type.
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:54 PM   #624
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Hey Magnus, if you’re going to go around loudly proclaiming that everyone else is wrong and you’re right, you should be able to back that up with sources. That’s how debate works. Simply saying “you know it’s true” doesn’t make it so if you can’t verify it with reputable sources.

Otherwise you just look like you don’t actually have the sources to back it up.
Here's the deal, I have had many of these debates before with folks who believe in the fairytale of the Russian Army, and how it was the Russians who really won the war, when it's simply not true. I am not going to go home and grab some books and cite sources that's a waste of time, Just like Dave C isn't citing sources either.
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Old 06-20-2019, 06:48 PM   #625
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Dave C - you simply don't know what Deep Operations are you errounsely credited the attrition of the German Army to Soviet Deep War doctrine, which is wrong. Deep Operations are a mobile combined arms effort- German Blitzkrieg is deep operations, American Combined Arms doctrine are deep operations. Soviet Deep Operations did not stop the German advance to Moscow, not one bit. That was a defense in depth. With a CO that was basically a steam roller.


You want some sources: Earl Zimeke US Army War College 1983


SDB was not really implemented since its creators were killed in the purges of the 1930s.
The USSR’s biggest victory, the battle of Stalingrad, was actually a case of modern maneuver warfare. The Red Army won by encircling the Nazi army and essentially starving it to death.
SDB was only implemented (barely) in late WW2 when a massive Red Army was steamrolling through Eastern Europe.




You have a big massive army, so you build a theory about drowning the enemy. Then, the theory fails early in WW2. It’s proponents are murdered and what’s left is useless. Then, by chance, a situation arises where SDB makes sense. Once that passes, SDB is praised in order to make the victory homegrown and logical rather than accidental. Once history moves on, the theory is quietly dropped and SDB becomes the province of military historians in needs of something to say about the cryptic Soviet military.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:04 PM   #626
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Fine. I’ll say this: your entire history of posting on this forum has been antagonistic and combative - in the NHL thread and in here. Find a different way of interacting.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:06 PM   #627
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Fine. I’ll say this: your entire history of posting on this forum has been antagonistic and combative - in the NHL thread and in here. Find a different way of interacting.
So dave's insults against me are ok?


This what started my losing my Religion with him:


Originally Posted by DaveC
lol. the idea that the western allies could have won the war outright without the soviets (and that the soviets were doomed without "western resupply") is so utterly asinine and historically ignorant that i almost don't even want to bother refuting this objectively dumb post. but i will anyways, for funsies.


Even though even Stalin said they couldn't cope without western resupply

it wouldn't have got belligerent at all if not for this, and several other statements made.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:55 PM   #628
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Victor David Hanson:


https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/...-davis-hanson/


Once the United States entered the war after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Axis cause was largely doomed. America mobilized 12 million soldiers — about the same number as did the Soviet Union, despite having a population of about 40 million fewer citizens.


American war production proved astonishing. At the huge Willow Run plant in Michigan, the greatest generation turned out a B-24 heavy bomber every hour. A single shipyard could mass-produce an ocean-going Liberty merchant ship from scratch in a week.
In just four years, the United States would produce more airplanes than all of the major war powers combined. Germany, Japan, Italy, and the Soviet Union could not build a successful four-engine heavy bomber. America, in contrast, produced 34,000 excellent B-17s, B-24s, and B-29s.

By 1944, the new U.S. Navy had become the largest in the history of civilization at more than 6,000 ships. Its B-29 heavy bomber program and Manhattan Project efforts together cost more $50 billion in today’s dollars.

At the same time, the U.S. supplied the Soviet Union with 400,000 heavy trucks, 2,000 locomotives, 11,000 railcars, and billions of dollars worth of planes, tanks, food, clothing, and strategic resources. By 1943–44, the U.S. also supplied about 20 percent of Britain’s munitions.

the Allies won by "sheer weight of material strength." Richard Overy


There was no sight in the war that so impressed me with the industrial might of America as the wreckage on the landing beaches,” he recalled in his memoirs. “To any other nation the disaster would have been almost decisive. But so great was America’s productive capacity that the great storm occasioned little more than a ripple in the development of our build-up.”


Dwight Eisenhower


https://www.history.com/how-detroit-won-world-war-ii


The Soviet system was all but shattered in 1941, two-thirds of its heavy industrial capacity captured and its vast air and tank armies destroyed. This was a war, Ribbentrop ruefully concluded, that 'Germany could have won'.


The air and tank armies were reorganised to mimic the German Panzer divisions and air fleets; communication and intelligence were vastly improved (helped by a huge supply of American and British telephone equipment and cable); training for officers and men was designed to encourage greater initiative; and the technology available was hastily modernised to match German

The Soviet Union did not turn the tide on the Eastern Front on its own. Though for decades Soviet historians played down the role of American and British Lend-Lease aid, its real significance has now been acknowledged. From 1942 a flow of food and raw materials and engineering equipment sustained the Soviet war effort.


There was enough food in the end to ensure a square meal for every Soviet soldier; most of the Soviet rail network was supplied with locomotives, wagons and rails made in the USA; one million miles of telephone wire, 14 million pairs of boots, 363, 000 trucks, all helped to keep the Red Army fighting with growing efficiency. Without Allied aid, Stalin later admitted, 'we would not have been able to cope'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldw...s_won_01.shtml

But above all it owed a great deal to the character of American industrial capitalism, with its 'can-do' ethos, high levels of engineering skill and tough-minded entrepreneurs. After a decade of recession the manufacturing community had a good deal of spare, unemployed capacity to absorb (unlike Germany, where full employment was reached well before the outbreak of war, and gains in output could only really come from improvements in productivity).


Why the Allies Won by Richard Overy (Pimlico Press, 1996)
The Battle by Richard Overy (Penguin Books, 2001)


https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-weapons-22020


The Allied powers eventually built more long-range bombers and aircraft carriers and became highly efficient at transporting troops and machines to faraway theaters, Hanson said. By 1945, the gross domestic product of the U.S. economy alone was almost larger than that of the Axis and other Allied powers combined.

So as you see Pence was right, it was American Capitalism and sheer industrial force that won WW2 - Along with a Island full of Bull Dogs that wouldn't give up. (who weren't socialists either)
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:40 PM   #629
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I had to also add the US mobilized 14M servicemen and women or roughly 11% of the population. Oh and BTW fighting a two front war. When did Russia join against Japan (late 44 I believe; sorry I was wrong August 45)


The USSR mobilized around 12-17M at one time


At its peak an estimated 12.5 million men and women fought in the Red Army. It is unknown how many were killed but after the peace was signed the government claimed that over 20 million Soviet citizens died during the Second World War. With a population of 170 Million


So for sure per capita More US Citizens were in the Armed Services at the peak of their power.


ALSO DON"T FORGET THAT RUSSIA HELPED START THE WAR MADE A DEAL WITH GERMANY INVADED POLAND WITH GERMANY. That brought FRance and GB into the war with Germany in the first place.


The Soviet Union in World War II is the story of several wars. When World War II started, the Soviet Union was effectively an ally of Nazi Germany in a relatively conventional European interstate war. Although the Germans did most of the fighting in Poland, the Soviet Union occupied the eastern part. Until 22 June 1941, when Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, the Soviet Union provided Nazi Germany with large quantities of strategic raw materials. Furthermore, the Soviet Union gave Germany access to the Far East, and especially rubber, which was brought through Siberia. During this time it also fought the 1939–1940 “Winter War” with Finland and, in 1940, occupied Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and what is now Moldova.

https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com...43292-0077.xml

So one could argue that the USSR brought it on themselves and had they not buddied up to Germany WW2 might not have started or at least the way it did.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:10 PM   #630
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Vintage STING.


Oh do we have a returning fellow under a new name?
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:46 AM   #631
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Oh do we have a returning fellow under a new name?
this guy just can't stand losing, he can't he can't, can't stand losing
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:02 AM   #632
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'I don't need sources, I just know'


Plus a link to a National Review article. I love it.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:10 AM   #633
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'I don't need sources, I just know'


Plus a link to a National Review article. I love it.
National review yes, but do you know how the author was, because if you did you wouldn't laugh.

That was Victor David Hanson, do you know how that is? VDH is one of the most respected writers on Military and Future affairs of our time. He is very respected in military schools. His writings are mandatory readings at CGSC (ILE and AOC) and the War College. One of his books "the Western Way of War" is mandatory reading.

here is a list of some of his works:

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Old 06-21-2019, 07:19 AM   #634
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Trump called off air strikes this morning against Iran

Do we think he is a bit nervous of starting a war compared to Pompeo and Bolton or is this a way of making him look somewhat in charge ?
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:51 AM   #635
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Can we just say Pence was right and move on?


Because in the end it's economies that win wars, I believe it's in the Cambridge history of modern warfare written by Parker (which Hanson is also featured) at the end of the chapter why the west has become so dominate it discusses economies and credit. In fact I think the exact quote is the extension of credit is the single greatest invention in the western way of war.


Parker, G. (2005). The Cambridge history of warfare. New York: Cambridge University Press.


Now this is may take 100% mine. Clauswitz said the war is an extension of diplomacy, I agree it is. However I believe that victory in war is an extension of economics, that war itself is economic.


Lets look at one of the Principle of War: economy of force - Employ all combat power available in the most effective way possible it states to use the minimum amount of combat power to secondary objectives. But if you further weed it out it's deeper than that it states I have limited assets wether that's troops, material, Ordnance etc, this supports the principle of Mass, Economy of Force is really a limiting factor, does a highly supplied Army need to use EoF as a principle, I would argue no. It no longer becomes a limiting factor but an advantage.


One of the cold realizations I have come to as that my job in the Army is simply (if we enter a Peer to Peer, or near Peer fight) is to contain the enemy until we out spend and out produce them.


We have the DIME (Diplomatic, Information, Military and Economics) these are the 4 sources of national power. I contend that the E is caps and the others are lc dimE.


The Sinews of War are infinite Money -- Cicero
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:54 AM   #636
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Trump called off air strikes this morning against Iran

Do we think he is a bit nervous of starting a war compared to Pompeo and Bolton or is this a way of making him look somewhat in charge ?
President Trump ran on keeping is out of "Stupid Wars" I don't think he wants to get involved in a War in Iran, or he is playing good cop, bad cop.
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:08 AM   #637
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Can we just say Pence was right and move on?
you just desperately want ANYONE to agree with you about this, don't you?
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:41 AM   #638
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you just desperately want ANYONE to agree with you about this, don't you?
Well I provided source after source backing my positions, you didn't provide any.

You claimed that land lease to Russia was inconsequential yet even Stalin said he couldn't cope with out it.

You claimed that the German Army being bled to death outside Moscow was part of SDO, when the Soviets didn't even use SDO at the time, and I provided sources from the Army War College stating that SDO wasn't used until 45 and then barley. That it was really just a fairy tale.

I provided source after source that shows it was the US economy that won the war.

But lets say as you said just for funsies that SDO was being used in 42 and early 43. Lets just say the SU had the ability to maneuver that quickly. Do you think the soviets could have achieved any success on the war, If the Americans weren't spitting out 37,000 bombers that weren't smashing the shit out of German factories preventing them from rebuilding tanks, planes and IFVs really, that is why the soviets advanced, the German army was being starved of resupply, they could never reconstitute.

You don't think the fact the Luftwaffe was being used to attack the never ending waves of bombers from the US over Germany and not on the Eastern Front had some huge bearing on the outcome, are the fact that ball bearing plants were pulverized and w/o BB you couldn't make new aircraft. Would SDO even work if the Germans maintained air superiority. The blitzkrieg ain't the BG without air power.

Also, I will concede that maybe nukes wouldn't have caused Germany to surrender, but it took Japan out which then Germany would face the full force of the US. 14M servicemen and woman. Also the full might of our economy, because as you see maintaining a navy in the pacific is expensive. Now you have to deal with the US power concentrated on one front, not two.

In the end it wasn't the soviet army that decided the outcome of the war (yes they sacrificed their soldiers needlessly most of the time) it was the US economy and production base.

So yes Freedom won WW2, Capitalism won WW2, Pence was right

Who won WW2, what man? it wasn't Zhukov or Stalin or even FDR, Ike or Marshall it was Knudson, William S Knudson
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:46 AM   #639
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double post
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Old 06-21-2019, 08:47 AM   #640
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imagine being in an angry frenzy for two days just because someone posted a picture of the soviet flag flying in berlin
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