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Old 04-26-2019, 12:33 PM   #961
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It does not take long for me to come back here and remember why I left. After so many years of fending off bad faith criticisms from the GOP, it has left Democrats/center-left folks totally incapable of reckoning with legitimate criticism. It's dulled the senses, I suppose, aided by a media class more than willing to shift along with the center as it drifts further to the right.

I would donate to the campaign of Sanders or Warren and vocally support them. The rest will almost definitely get my vote, but nothing more than that, and I think would all present real opportunities for Trump to get re-elected. The most disheartening thing to me about the obsession with Russia is not that I don't think they interfered, but rather that it was used as a catch-all excuse for why the Democrats failed. There is no reckoning with their total inability to accomplish anything.

This whole forum is a fucking bulletin board for DNC talking points, and I give credit that you're all very good at playing the sheet music. I don't mean that you're propagandists; I think you all are generally genuine in your beliefs, even if I don't think the arguments may be as consistently genuine.

But you're just ... wrong, and wrong so much. It's just decidedly different from reality, in a way that I often fail to articulate because I just get angry over how much you're failing to see that's right in front of your face. I can only say it so many ways.

Capitalism is crumbling all around us. The environment is rapidly preparing to kill us. Silicon Valley ceased innovating anything but how to reignite monopolizing industries. Another economic crash is virtually guaranteed in the next 5-7 years. And here we are hearing about how the leftists are too unrealistic and we just need a responsible milquetoast Dem to come save us from Trump. And it might happen! But all it will do is get us another four years of nothing happening, everyone remembering that no improvement is all the Democrats have to offer, and the GOP taking back power within the decade.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:38 PM   #962
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and here i was thinking all along that you were actually an adult. silly me.
An adult can focus on the big picture and not ridiculous distractions and missteps that every candidate will have. An adult can see that Biden saw that his actions were viewed as inappropriate by some and move along. You think Trump will be easy to beat? Then you're wrong. An immovable base of racist cult followers, voter suppression, Russian, Chinese, and I guess now Saudi interference will be sure to help him along again.
The infighting of the Dem party is what is childish and self-defeating. So you can take an adult, broader view and get the country free of a deranged, lawless, POS, or you can pick apart and destroy the best candidates we have and keep him there. Your choice i guess.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:39 PM   #963
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It does not take long for me to come back here and remember why I left. After so many years of fending off bad faith criticisms from the GOP, it has left Democrats/center-left folks totally incapable of reckoning with legitimate criticism. It's dulled the senses, I suppose, aided by a media class more than willing to shift along with the center as it drifts further to the right.

I would donate to the campaign of Sanders or Warren and vocally support them. The rest will almost definitely get my vote, but nothing more than that, and I think would all present real opportunities for Trump to get re-elected. The most disheartening thing to me about the obsession with Russia is not that I don't think they interfered, but rather that it was used as a catch-all excuse for why the Democrats failed. There is no reckoning with their total inability to accomplish anything.

This whole forum is a fucking bulletin board for DNC talking points, and I give credit that you're all very good at playing the sheet music. I don't mean that you're propagandists; I think you all are generally genuine in your beliefs, even if I don't think the arguments may be as consistently genuine.

But you're just ... wrong, and wrong so much. It's just decidedly different from reality, in a way that I often fail to articulate because I just get angry over how much you're failing to see that's right in front of your face. I can only say it so many ways.

Capitalism is crumbling all around us. The environment is rapidly preparing to kill us. Silicon Valley ceased innovating anything but how to reignite monopolizing industries. Another economic crash is virtually guaranteed in the next 5-7 years. And here we are hearing about how the leftists are too unrealistic and we just need a responsible milquetoast Dem to come save us from Trump. And it might happen! But all it will do is get us another four years of nothing happening, everyone remembering that no improvement is all the Democrats have to offer, and the GOP taking back power within the decade.
all of this is spot-on to how i've been feeling about this place lately.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:44 PM   #964
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An adult can focus on the big picture and not ridiculous distractions and missteps that every candidate will have. An adult can see that Biden saw that his actions were viewed as inappropriate by some and move along.
you're utterly delusional if you think he's genuinely sorry for a single thing he's done, or that he even understands what he did wrong. even today on the view the hosts gave him multiple opportunities to simply say "i'm sorry" both to anita hill and the women who complained about his behaviour and he outright refused to say those words without adding an "...if they felt" or a "...but" afterwards.

and it's also very interesting that you seem to consider anita hill's ordeal and the multiple women accusing him of inappropriate behaviour as nothing more than "ridiculous distractions and missteps that every candidate will have."
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:58 PM   #965
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It does not take long for me to come back here and remember why I left. After so many years of fending off bad faith criticisms from the GOP, it has left Democrats/center-left folks totally incapable of reckoning with legitimate criticism. It's dulled the senses, I suppose, aided by a media class more than willing to shift along with the center as it drifts further to the right.

I would donate to the campaign of Sanders or Warren and vocally support them. The rest will almost definitely get my vote, but nothing more than that, and I think would all present real opportunities for Trump to get re-elected. The most disheartening thing to me about the obsession with Russia is not that I don't think they interfered, but rather that it was used as a catch-all excuse for why the Democrats failed. There is no reckoning with their total inability to accomplish anything.

This whole forum is a fucking bulletin board for DNC talking points, and I give credit that you're all very good at playing the sheet music. I don't mean that you're propagandists; I think you all are generally genuine in your beliefs, even if I don't think the arguments may be as consistently genuine.

But you're just ... wrong, and wrong so much. It's just decidedly different from reality, in a way that I often fail to articulate because I just get angry over how much you're failing to see that's right in front of your face. I can only say it so many ways.

Capitalism is crumbling all around us. The environment is rapidly preparing to kill us. Silicon Valley ceased innovating anything but how to reignite monopolizing industries. Another economic crash is virtually guaranteed in the next 5-7 years. And here we are hearing about how the leftists are too unrealistic and we just need a responsible milquetoast Dem to come save us from Trump. And it might happen! But all it will do is get us another four years of nothing happening, everyone remembering that no improvement is all the Democrats have to offer, and the GOP taking back power within the decade.
Very good points. I want some major changes as well. But as we both know, our entire system was created to actual stop dramatic change from happening. The separation of powers will always win over who is in the white house. The problem is that Trump is not really making much change legislatively, but he is, every day, changing the degrading and tearing down the fabric that holds our democracy together.

So yes, if it were just me deciding, I would probably go with Warren, or Harris, or even Sanders. I like Mayor Pete a lot as well. Even though I know 90% of their policy ideas would not be enacted. And believe me, i would donate, phone bank and drag myself over broken glass to vote for them if they are the nominee.

But there are certain moments in our country's history that pragmatism has to be the best course of action. We can't risk not winning this time. We just can't. Biden, while centrist, will be able to start putting more left leaning judges on the bench. He will protect human rights, will get us back in the Paris Climate Accord, will get us back in the good graces of our allies, will happily sign new gun regulations, will protect voting rights, will protect LGBTQ rights, won't bend over for dictators around the world, the list goes on.

I think Biden, Sanders and Harris and possibly Pete with the perfect running mate have a chance to beat Trump. All would be infinitely better than what we have now and would make progress in areas that important to Democratic voters.

I understand your point about focusing on Russia. But really think about the consequences. Trump won't even admit that any interference happened. That means that they and other countries will now jump in, knowing that they are free to interfere in any way they want with our democratic process with no consequences. 9/11 knocked down the WTC. But this is now foreign countries knocking down voting districts across the country, and spreading false information daily to hundreds of millions of people. It isn't a shocking and life changing event all at once. It's the chipping away of the very core of democratic system.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:59 PM   #966
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you're utterly delusional if you think he's genuinely sorry for a single thing he's done, or that he even understands what he did wrong. even today on the view the hosts gave him multiple opportunities to simply say "i'm sorry" both to anita hill and the women who complained about his behaviour and he outright refused to say those words without adding an "...if they felt" or a "...but" afterwards.

and it's also very interesting that you seem to consider anita hill's ordeal and the multiple women accusing him of inappropriate behaviour as nothing more than "ridiculous distractions and missteps that every candidate will have."
I think it's much more delusional to think that over his career, that .00005% of the people that he's come into contact with have felt "uncomfortable" makes him in some way un-electable. If he changes the way he interacts going forward, i absolutely think that he understands what he did wrong. And any non-delusional person would too. But you keep chipping away. Have fun. I'll be the adult and help to oust Trump.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:08 PM   #967
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you sound exactly like a hardcore trump supporter after the access hollywood tapes came out, but okay. i'm done with this gross conversation.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:16 PM   #968
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https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/s...840490496?s=21

There are changes happening slowly at the moment

But not the direction we would like. Fascism isn’t as far off as we think
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:19 PM   #969
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you sound exactly like a hardcore trump supporter after the access hollywood tapes came out, but okay. i'm done with this gross conversation.
Yes, because grabbing women in the pussy and having 19 women accusing you of sexual assault is completely equivalent to Biden's conduct. That's exactly the point that a Trump supporter would make. You're a real hero.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:25 PM   #970
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i'm not the one who called decades of shitty behavior towards women "ridiculous distractions and missteps" and insisted that winning at politics next year is more important than anything those women went through, but feel free to keep pretending that im the asshole here if it helps get you thru the night.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:30 PM   #971
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It's not just the two women, womanfish, it's his absolutely appalling response to Anita Hill. He's unable to apologize 30 years later for his role, it's all the typical bullshit nonpology of "I'm sorry that she was treated x way". By whom? Robots? Extraterrestrials? Own it and apologize like a real bloody adult instead of continually gaslighting us with this "if anyone was offended then..." nonsense.

But for me that's not what sinks Biden, it's just an undesirable quirk. With him it's this sense of entitlement, like this 70+ yr old near dinosaur is the only one that can save us from ourselves because of a few thousand naive voters (and I am being exceedingly polite) in Pennsylvania. I'm really not sure why we're all of a sudden meant to believe that he's the only one who can win there? And how many more elections are the Democrats going to waste concentrating on the deep red dying areas of Ohio. Move on.

I don't agree with everything the so-called Justice Democrats tend to be yelling out there, often without digging down deeper as to what it all means, but it's really naive and stupid not to recognize that literally ALL the energy on the Dem side is with that cohort. And there are real reasons for why that is the case.

Climate change is huge, the funny thing is that even large businesses are getting it and the US government (and most Cdn provincial governments are no better) are like dinosaurs waiting for a meteor. Financially speaking, there are many opportunities in measuring a carbon footprint, adjusting your supply chain and so on. 60% of institutional investors (!!) consider ESG metrics in making investment decisions. This is something that is on the forefront of nearly every young person but also increasingly on the forefront of every mildly competent business person. That is just one topic that a lot of the D field is almost terrified of tackling, because Trump will make fun of them on Twitter? Tell his deplorables that they won't be able to watch solar powered TV when the sun goes down? I mean who cares about this guy, but the Dem establishment really is so milquetoast on a lot of matters that it's depressing.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:32 PM   #972
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Think I’m deleting this app from my phone today. The loss of any sort of grip on reality, or how politics actually works, has become too much to bear. It’s easy to read Jacobin and maybe a few Glen Greenwald columns and think you’ve had the world explained to you, but it certainly isn’t possible to have a discussion with such folk. So I’m not going to be checking in or posting as much.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:37 PM   #973
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Think I’m deleting this app from my phone today. The loss of any sort of grip on reality, or how politics actually works, has become too much to bear. It’s easy to read Jacobin and maybe a few Glen Greenwald columns and think you’ve had the world explained to you, but it certainly isn’t possible to have a discussion with such folk. So I’m not going to be checking in or posting as much.
Come on, don't go. We need you here. You are a valued voice, imo.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:40 PM   #974
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you sound exactly like a hardcore trump supporter after the access hollywood tapes came out, but okay. i'm done with this gross conversation.
That wasn't directed at me but...

You can't just make that comparison. One is a guy coming off as an enormous asshole as he says out loud that he likes to grab womens' private parts without invitation or permission just because he can.

The other is a touchy-feely guy who has gone too far at certain points with touching a shoulder or a cheek or whatever, but by all accounts there was no bad intent, and even the women complaining won't call any of that assault, they'll only say they were uncomfortable. I'm sure they were, and I'm sure he shouldn't have done those things, but I do not believe there was any maliciousness there.

I don't know if you were trying to say the two things were equal in terms of offense, probably you weren't, but I'm troubled by the comparison. It's not the same, imo.

And BTW, while I'm ok with Biden, he's not my first choice. I too would choose Warren if I could waive a magic wand. Don't call me some kind of DNC shill when Warren is my first choice.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:47 PM   #975
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Also, can we appreciate the irony that on the same page of the same thread, there are two posts - one in which Jerry Dunk calls this place 'a bulletin board for DNC talking points', and another in which Irvine insinuates that the place is overrun by Jacobin readers. It seems to me that both things can't be true.

Maybe it's neither, and it's just a place with multiple diverse viewpoints?
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:51 PM   #976
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That wasn't directed at me but...

You can't just make that comparison. One is a guy coming off as an enormous asshole as he says out loud that he likes to grab womens' private parts without invitation or permission just because he can.

The other is a touchy-feely guy who has gone too far at certain points with touching a shoulder or a cheek or whatever, but by all accounts there was no bad intent, and even the women complaining won't call any of that assault, they'll only say they were uncomfortable. I'm sure they were, and I'm sure he shouldn't have done those things, but I do not believe there was any maliciousness there.

I don't know if you were trying to say the two things were equal in terms of offense, probably you weren't, but I'm troubled by the comparison. It's not the same, imo.

And BTW, while I'm ok with Biden, he's not my first choice. I too would choose Warren if I could waive a magic wand. Don't call me some kind of DNC shill when Warren is my first choice.
obviously what trump did and what biden did are not in any way equivalent, and i'm kind of surprised anyone thought i was suggesting that.

i was making the comparison between trump supporters' dismissive reaction to the AH tape ("its just locker room talk", "it's in the past", "we need to focus on winning" etc) to womanfish's dismissive reaction to the biden accusations. clearly there's no one-to-one comparison with what the two men did, but the reaction is tellingly similar.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:32 PM   #977
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obviously what trump did and what biden did are not in any way equivalent, and i'm kind of surprised anyone thought i was suggesting that.

i was making the comparison between trump supporters' dismissive reaction to the AH tape ("its just locker room talk", "it's in the past", "we need to focus on winning" etc) to womanfish's dismissive reaction to the biden accusations. clearly there's no one-to-one comparison with what the two men did, but the reaction is tellingly similar.
I get your point. And I didn't mean to come off as dismissive of Biden's behavior. He should have known and done better a long time ago. But my point is that he addressed it, (not to everyone's satisfaction i realize) and if he actually changes it moving forward, great, i think he did get it and understood. If he doesn't then that will be disappointing and to me pretty shitty.

I think Biden's got the best shot. But he may very well go down in flames in the primary. I am keeping a completely open mind and am pretty impressed with some of the other candidates. I know others CAN win. But not sure if they will. These last couple years have been so jarring, that I think I just get overwhelmed that it could happen again. I hope not.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:58 PM   #978
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It's not just the two women, womanfish, it's his absolutely appalling response to Anita Hill. He's unable to apologize 30 years later for his role, it's all the typical bullshit nonpology of "I'm sorry that she was treated x way". By whom? Robots? Extraterrestrials? Own it and apologize like a real bloody adult instead of continually gaslighting us with this "if anyone was offended then..." nonsense.

But for me that's not what sinks Biden, it's just an undesirable quirk. With him it's this sense of entitlement, like this 70+ yr old near dinosaur is the only one that can save us from ourselves because of a few thousand naive voters (and I am being exceedingly polite) in Pennsylvania. I'm really not sure why we're all of a sudden meant to believe that he's the only one who can win there? And how many more elections are the Democrats going to waste concentrating on the deep red dying areas of Ohio. Move on.

I don't agree with everything the so-called Justice Democrats tend to be yelling out there, often without digging down deeper as to what it all means, but it's really naive and stupid not to recognize that literally ALL the energy on the Dem side is with that cohort. And there are real reasons for why that is the case.

Climate change is huge, the funny thing is that even large businesses are getting it and the US government (and most Cdn provincial governments are no better) are like dinosaurs waiting for a meteor. Financially speaking, there are many opportunities in measuring a carbon footprint, adjusting your supply chain and so on. 60% of institutional investors (!!) consider ESG metrics in making investment decisions. This is something that is on the forefront of nearly every young person but also increasingly on the forefront of every mildly competent business person. That is just one topic that a lot of the D field is almost terrified of tackling, because Trump will make fun of them on Twitter? Tell his deplorables that they won't be able to watch solar powered TV when the sun goes down? I mean who cares about this guy, but the Dem establishment really is so milquetoast on a lot of matters that it's depressing.
This is kinda my point. Now we're going back almost 30 years to bash Biden on something. What does that accomplish? I am completely in awe of people who seem to have this notion that no one changes their view over time. That people wouldn't do things differently 30 years ago than they would do today.

My whole point again - is this is NOT a normal situation. This is not Mitt Romney or Jeb Bush, or even Pence. This is a nation changing, life altering person that is currently running roughshod over everything.
So I think it is in everyone's best interest to want him out.

This is triage. Does an ER doc get a severely injured patient and want them up and running a 5k the next week? No. They stops the bleeding. They let wounds heal and bones set and get physical therapy going.

Any Dem that gets in office will do extraordinarily more for the environment, and for everything else for that matter, than Trump.

So my point is. Why gamble at this critical moment in our history? Could Mayor Pete win? Maybe. Think he would win WI, but don't really see MI or PA going his way. Could Harris win? Quite possibly. But not a sure thing. Not sure she takes back the midwest, but could pick NC back up, which wouldn't be enough. Could Sanders win? In theory, sure he could. But don't underestimate the power of Trump's propaganda with the Socialist word. We sane people know that Sanders isn't pushing Venezuela style socialism, but i think it's clear we are not dealing with the most sane or intelligent electorate.

I just think it isn't productive to start instantly tearing down candidates in our own party. Let's see how debates and town halls go. Biden could seriously shoot himself down, and that will be his own doing. Some others may rise in an impressive fashion and that will be great. I'm just going with my current viewpoint, which could change dramatically as the months go by.
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Old 04-26-2019, 03:08 PM   #979
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This is kinda my point. Now we're going back almost 30 years to bash Biden on something. What does that accomplish? I am completely in awe of people who seem to have this notion that no one changes their view over time. That people wouldn't do things differently 30 years ago than they would do today.
NOBODY is expecting him to change his behaviour 30 years ago or go back in time. Obviously.

But your comment about being in awe that the rest of us have this notion that "no one changes their view over time" is fairly disingenuous given that Biden himself has flat out refused to apologize for HIS role in the Anita Hill debacle, which was a soul crushing, publicly humiliating experience for the woman. Why can't he just say that he was wrong and behaved incorrectly? Instead he says he is sorry that she was treated poorly. As if he had nothing to do with it. Just freaking own it. His refusal indicates that he actually hasn't changed his view, at least not enough to recognize his role.
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Old 04-26-2019, 03:23 PM   #980
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exactly. he's "apologizing" because he knows he has to make some sort of public demonstration for the sake of his campaign. he's not apologizing because he's genuinely sorry. he's not apologizing because he understands now that what he did was inappropriate or wrong. he's saying these things because he has to. the fact that he can't just stop at "i'm sorry" and always feels the need to equivocate every single time he says those two words demonstrates that he is clearly not getting it.

he's apologizing in the same way that a six year old is made to apologize to the younger sibling that they just hit. he's saying the words and hoping that that will be the end of it and he can go back to playing with his toys.
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