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Old 02-24-2019, 02:31 PM   #941
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The AID stuff to Venezuela is nothing more than a precursor to war. Trump wants to go to war so bad, and he and other countries want the oil.

For the domestic issues, has anyone seen an explanation to all the twitter posts i made about why the Green New Deal has literally every progressive idea included in a climate bill ?

This is the same thing with Sanders. He’ll introduce bills that have zero chance at passing because he asks for the kitchen sink.

Start with the plumbing first
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:53 PM   #942
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I’m really not following how Trump ‘wants to go to war so bad.’ I doubt Trump wants to go to war. I would imagine he just wants to look good by overthrowing a socialist.
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:56 PM   #943
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I understand all that, and I'm well-aware of what Iran-Contra was, but I guess I'm just not understanding what your ultimate position on Venezeula is.

Is that Madura should stay in power?

Is it that Madura is bad but that the U.S. should not be involved in overthrowing him?

Or is it something else?
My starting position is that the United States cannot intervene internationally. Foreign aid is fine, but that is not what this is.

My position on Venezuela is that the details may be different, but it is another case of a variety of forces conspiring against even a whiff of moving towards socialism. Maduro is obviously a flawed president. But regardless of your position on Maduro, there is a reason Guaido's biggest supporters are Trump and Bolsonaro.
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For the domestic issues, has anyone seen an explanation to all the twitter posts i made about why the Green New Deal has literally every progressive idea included in a climate bill ?

This is the same thing with Sanders. He’ll introduce bills that have zero chance at passing because he asks for the kitchen sink.

Start with the plumbing first
Incrementalism does not work. Obama was an incrementalist. He "started small" on healthcare with the ACA. And how did that work out?

Incremental change can work on social issues like gay marriage, which ended up getting adopted nationwide quicker than many expected. But for most other issues, it never works. Almost everything Obama "accomplished" during his time in office either had no lasting impact, or was easily rolled back as soon as someone else got in power.

When those changes make no real impact on people's lives, all it looks like to the typical voter is that your plans did not help. The Democrats took over the presidency, senate, and house in 2009, and for most people, nothing changed.

Even if you believe in the notion that the only way forward is compromise and bipartisanship, why the fuck would you ever start at your concession point? Why would you start with the Republicans' healthcare plan? Why would you ever say "I want this, but it cannot be done" and immediately conceding the point to your opponent?

The reason is because they a) don't really want it and b) they would rather be "realistic" than state what they really want appear to "lose" if that is not what ends up happening. They worship technocracy and incrementalism to the point where they do it just for the sake of it, because having ideals and policies you truly believe in and want to fight for is for the cranks like Ocasio-Cortez and Sanders.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:04 PM   #944
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I’m really not following how Trump ‘wants to go to war so bad.’ I doubt Trump wants to go to war. I would imagine he just wants to look good by overthrowing a socialist.


Or to continue to use Venezuela as an example of “socialism” to scare the middle — that it’s the AOC/Sanders utopia come to terrible, terrible life.

Trump doesn’t actually want solutions to the problems he has identified. He doesn’t even really want a wall. He wants the fight.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:08 PM   #945
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My starting position is that the United States cannot intervene internationally. Foreign aid is fine, but that is not what this is.



My position on Venezuela is that the details may be different, but it is another case of a variety of forces conspiring against even a whiff of moving towards socialism. Maduro is obviously a flawed president. But regardless of your position on Maduro, there is a reason Guaido's biggest supporters are Trump and Bolsonaro.



Incrementalism does not work. Obama was an incrementalist. He "started small" on healthcare with the ACA. And how did that work out?



Incremental change can work on social issues like gay marriage, which ended up getting adopted nationwide quicker than many expected. But for most other issues, it never works. Almost everything Obama "accomplished" during his time in office either had no lasting impact, or was easily rolled back as soon as someone else got in power.



When those changes make no real impact on people's lives, all it looks like to the typical voter is that your plans did not help. The Democrats took over the presidency, senate, and house in 2009, and for most people, nothing changed.



Even if you believe in the notion that the only way forward is compromise and bipartisanship, why the fuck would you ever start at your concession point? Why would you start with the Republicans' healthcare plan? Why would you ever say "I want this, but it cannot be done" and immediately conceding the point to your opponent?



The reason is because they a) don't really want it and b) they would rather be "realistic" than state what they really want appear to "lose" if that is not what ends up happening. They worship technocracy and incrementalism to the point where they do it just for the sake of it, because having ideals and policies you truly believe in and want to fight for is for the cranks like Ocasio-Cortez and Sanders.




Oh, right. You are who I thought you were.

I don’t have that much of a problem with your opinions, although gay marriage and the ACA dramatically improved the quality of my life, and I think the cranks and the actual adults in the room need each other and can wisely work together.

Anyway, this is why I’m a liberal/progressive and not a leftist, and that’s fine. There’s space for all of us, just make sure we’re all pulling the lever for the person with th me D by their name no matter what in November 2020.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:13 PM   #946
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Or to continue to use Venezuela as an example of “socialism” to scare the middle — that it’s the AOC/Sanders utopia come to terrible, terrible life.

Trump doesn’t actually want solutions to the problems he has identified. He doesn’t even really want a wall. He wants the fight.


Agreed. I had a lyft driver ranting to me about socialists in Venezuela (he was from Venezuela). What I couldn’t seem to understand was how he was equating what’s going on there to what’s going on here. Like, he genuinely thought that the US would end up like Venezuela if a “socialist” were elected. It’s all fear, and it works well.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:43 PM   #947
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Or to continue to use Venezuela as an example of “socialism” to scare the middle — that it’s the AOC/Sanders utopia come to terrible, terrible life.

Trump doesn’t actually want solutions to the problems he has identified. He doesn’t even really want a wall. He wants the fight.
The “you’ll have to your pets or a zoo animal” cuz Socialism line ..... could be effective if it keeps happening in Venezuela into 2020
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:43 PM   #948
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Agreed. I had a lyft driver ranting to me about socialists in Venezuela (he was from Venezuela). What I couldn’t seem to understand was how he was equating what’s going on there to what’s going on here. Like, he genuinely thought that the US would end up like Venezuela if a “socialist” were elected. It’s all fear, and it works well.


Which is Sanders’ central weakness in any genera election.

That, and the mountain of evidence that he likes leftists dictatorships and honeymooned in the Soviet Union.
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Old 02-24-2019, 07:27 PM   #949
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I'm with Beal, I still don't understand how half the stuff in this Green New Deal has anything to do with climate change. Why is there so much in the one bill?
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Old 02-24-2019, 07:32 PM   #950
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I would suppose the point of so much being in one bill with the name “new deal” is because it’s supposed to emulate FDR’s New Deal, which was obviously (as you probably already know) a massive economic program centered around numerous things from unemployment to financial reform.

“Green” new deal, I would suppose, is another “new deal” meant to broadly address numerous problems, with an emphasis on doing it in a green fashion (if applicable).
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Old 02-24-2019, 07:32 PM   #951
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Cause they’re more about their ego than providing any change ?

It’s about being able to yell from the sidelines than give any sort of compromise

While there’s no compromise with the current GOP, the fact that there’s no compromise within your own party is why we are where we are.

It’s my way or the highway.

It has to be incremental change. The US system is too damn complex to just blow up and start from scratch.
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Old 02-24-2019, 07:38 PM   #952
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Cause they’re more about their ego than providing any change ?

It’s about being able to yell from the sidelines than give any sort of compromise

While there’s no compromise with the current GOP, the fact that there’s no compromise within your own party is why we are where we are.

It’s my way or the highway.

It has to be incremental change. The US system is too damn complex to just blow up and start from scratch.


Broadly put, I disagree with everything in this post. And it’s an absurd piece of unnecessary character assassination to claim it’s about their egos when there’s absolutely no evidence to suggest that, and simultaneously a ton of evidence to suggest these people you’re referring to are ideologues who genuinely want to make big changes.
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:12 PM   #953
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So why put everything that she did into this green new deal other than to say she tried ?
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:58 PM   #954
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So why put everything that she did into this green new deal other than to say she tried ?


Did you ignore what I wrote earlier? I’m assuming you know what the “new deal” was and what it contains.

The concept is sweeping legislation and a framework for the future in a “better together” type package.

This post I’m quoting is quite an egregious response. As though there’s no other reason to craft up such legislation “other than to say she tried.”

You’re way smarter than that, so either you’re playing dumb or you think I’m stupid. Your call.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:02 PM   #955
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I’m not even endorsing it. I haven’t fully researched it. I just can’t believe that anyone’s immediate response is to dismiss it. It sounds almost scripted to do so. If I’m any measure for the common person, most people probably don’t even care what it entails. It’s just another micro sports team battle from within the Democratic Party, where it’s either that you support Ocasio-Cortez or you don’t. It’s annoying.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:32 PM   #956
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It’s just another micro sports team battle from within the Democratic Party, where it’s either that you support Ocasio-Cortez or you don’t. It’s annoying.



This.

Dont let her become the de facto opponent in 2020. She will lose. She is who Trump wants to run against.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:29 PM   #957
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I have no real issue with her. I think she’s smart and very savvy (and i think she’s hot...)

I just don’t get the point of her throwing in everything she did into this bill.

The climate is a big enough deal that MAYBE there could be support for it across the isle (doubtful)

But with all the extra stuff there’s just no way and why defeat yourself from the very beginning ?
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Old 02-24-2019, 11:40 PM   #958
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Guys, July 4th. HOLD THE DATE
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:07 AM   #959
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And trumpets wonder why the world laughs at Trump....

https://ca.yahoo.com/finance/news/tr...082052157.html
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:37 AM   #960
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This.

Dont let her become the de facto opponent in 2020. She will lose. She is who Trump wants to run against.
There's gonna be a wide range of candidates. I agree, we can't let this get sucked into an AOC represents the party. Trump will play all day off that.

I like Bernie, I like Warren, but to implement every plan they put forth is a bit delusional. I think that a Harris or a Booker, a Castro, possibly Brown or a Biden (depending how he plays it) is going to be the middle road between centric Dem and far left progressive.
Obviously there is a huge pool of people that will vote for a hamster over Trump, but we can't rely on that. I want a mix of aspiration and realism. Klobuchar is too far to the realist side, and Bernie a bit too far on the aspiration side. I'm gonna keep an open mind and see the debates to see who jumps out at me. It's going to be entertaining for sure.
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