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Old 02-20-2019, 09:22 AM   #841
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I heard one of Trump's lawyers explaining all his various potentially impeachable behaviour while in the WH as understandable if we just look at it through the lens of Trump continuing to act like he did while he was a private citizen businessman. So I guess even they are accepting the fact that he was a mobbed up con man his entire life.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:37 AM   #842
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https://www.boston.com/news/media/2019/02/19/cnn-hires-a-prominent-conservative-to-help-direct-its-political-coverage


Yep, nothing to see here. Just the left wing media continuing to have it out for poor old Trump

Let’s face it, the media needs Trump. He’s a ratings boost every day.

Jeff Zucker and Trump are buddies, so I’m sure they have some sort of fake feud with all the attacks.

Sure the crazies will send bombs but think about the boost to ratings !!

This lady they hired is a Seth Rich, pizzagate conspiracy nut
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:56 AM   #843
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It does matter, and it’s also not the same as likability or relatability (in the “GWB is the kind of guy I’d like to have a beer with” way). All three of them play a part in swaying opinions on both sides of the aisle. They’re not irrelevant things like jesusfreak suggests they should be*, and it’s not the single most important factor like womanfish suggests they should be.
If that's what you got that from what i wrote, I definitely didn't mean it to be that way. I emphasized that white candidates like Bill Clinton, and Biden both have very high regard and turnout among minority voters, particularly black voters.
I just think it's naive and dishonest to say that a good black or latino candidate isn't going to get a larger percentage of minority votes from the black or latino demographic. I preface it with the term "good" because I am assuming we can all agree a terrible candidate, like say Ben Carson, shouldn't even be part of a discussion like this.

I do believe that personality, charisma, ability to capture an audience and make them feel like you are there to fight for them genuinely, is more important than anything else. Without it, the candidate will struggle.

Case in point my poor girl Hillary. She had fairly strong support among the black community, but she has the charisma of a dinner plate. Maybe a fancy plate with a nice design it or something, but a dinner plate nonetheless.
She had brief moments of capturing a crowd, but beyond that, it was more a following of people that new she would actually be best at the job (like me) people that were excited for the first female president, and people that just were Dems that voted Dem. And in the end that wasn't enough.

It take a special candidate to reach a broad range of voters, from working class, to wealthier, to minority, to women, to younger voters. I don't know if any has ever captured all of them at once, but Bill Clinton probably came as close as anyone, and that was because he was a candidate from smack dab in the middle of America, lightly tinged southern accent, relatable to the working man, moderate and white enough for the left leaning republicans, boat-loads of charm, proactively worked for the minority vote, and felt comfortable and genuine doing it, brilliant and could capture crowds with ease. He had it. Obama was probably the second closest.

Then you have someone like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. They both have the same... thing but on opposite sides of the spectrum. Both have over the top solid bases. If either of them told their bases to chop off their pinkie fingers and send them in as a donation, they would get hundreds of thousands of severed pinkies in the mail. They can say anything to their base and it will be believed, they can make any mistake and it is forgiven and explained away.
But Sanders appeals to mainly younger white voters, and a swath of white independent voters. Falls completely flat with minorities. Why? I don't really know other than people are drawn to certain personalities and that's just how it is. Possibly black voters are in general more moderate and pragmatic and aren't drawn in as easily to (some might say) pie in sky ideas that Sanders espouses. But in the end, it is personality that brings it home.

So who has "IT" this time around? thoughts?
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:39 AM   #844
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I'm very curious to see what Sanders does with this campaign. His 2016 campaign clearly had flaws, but my read on it is that they were mostly borne of the fact that he did not even take his own campaign seriously. He got into it in 2016 for the reason everyone thought he did: to throw a few key issues in there to hopefully move Clinton to the left a bit. Whether he would admit it or not, he had to be surprised by how well taken his message was. I think pretty much everyone at that level of the government failed to understand how bad things had gotten for so many people, and after so many years of his message largely failing to get through, I do not think he was prepared for it.

He clearly had work to do in regrouping for another run. Two main things: can he build something that addresses the internal issues he had, in not having the structure necessary to deal with issues like the harassment that was reported that never got to the people it never got to? And can he more clearly engage with older people of color?

There is a bit of a misperception on how Sanders resonated with minority voters. He did not do well with older black voters, for example, but actually outperformed Clinton with young black and Hispanic voters.

The thing about Sanders is that he just needs to work on his messaging. He needs to fight the perception that fighting income inequality is only about white working class voters, when it is so obviously about much more than that. He needs to amplify how much his policies are going to help everyone. Young POC are on his side in numbers that largely go unreported, and he needs to build on that.

I'm supporting Sanders because his policies are the best. He absolutely needs to improve in his outreach to minorities, and he needs to improve some of his other policies. His healthcare bill, for example, is not comprehensive enough, and he should throw his support behind the Jayapal bill. He needs to state unequivocally that he has been wrong about voting against lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

Warren is a distant second, but would also clearly be better than the rest of the field. I thought she was DOA after the disastrous DNA test nonsense, but her messaging since announcing has been surprisingly strong, consistent, and coherent.

The rest of the field bums me out.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:42 AM   #845
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He needs to

--do a better job of explaining how things will be paid for besides just saying he's going to tax the wealthy
--explain his record on guns
--explain the harassment issues his previous campaign apparently had
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:43 AM   #846
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Oh and I got my taxes back and just wanted to give a hearty fuck you to anyone who voted for this asshole and his policies.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:43 AM   #847
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US Politics XII: shutting down Interference until @U2 agrees to pay for a firewall

Don’t forget to release his taxes

And I’m curious what will come of his campaign manager Ted Divine (sp?) who was a partner of Manafort and has been questioned by Mueller
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:54 AM   #848
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To go back to the cnn bs


https://twitter.com/gaywonk/status/1...377282048?s=21
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:04 PM   #849
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US Politics XII: shutting down Interference until @U2 agrees to pay for a firewall

What Bernie needs to do is to explain how his leftist populist appeal to white working class voters is going to extend to black and brown voters and not lose said whites them. Generally, white people dont like paying taxes because they think the government is taking their money and giving it to undeserving black and brown folks. It’s kind of been this way forever, and has been at the core of the GOP’s appeal since the Civil Rights Act. This is kind of a generalization, but the white something class hasn’t really been much of a model of racial harmony and acceptance historically.

We need to realize that populism — left or right — is a really tough fit for a vast, multiethnic society like the US. Demagoguing “millionaires and billionaires” isn’t going to last long, because every white man thinks there’s a chance he could be one someday.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:09 PM   #850
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I'm very curious to see what Sanders does with this campaign. His 2016 campaign clearly had flaws, but my read on it is that they were mostly borne of the fact that he did not even take his own campaign seriously. He got into it in 2016 for the reason everyone thought he did: to throw a few key issues in there to hopefully move Clinton to the left a bit. Whether he would admit it or not, he had to be surprised by how well taken his message was. I think pretty much everyone at that level of the government failed to understand how bad things had gotten for so many people, and after so many years of his message largely failing to get through, I do not think he was prepared for it.

He clearly had work to do in regrouping for another run. Two main things: can he build something that addresses the internal issues he had, in not having the structure necessary to deal with issues like the harassment that was reported that never got to the people it never got to? And can he more clearly engage with older people of color?

There is a bit of a misperception on how Sanders resonated with minority voters. He did not do well with older black voters, for example, but actually outperformed Clinton with young black and Hispanic voters.

The thing about Sanders is that he just needs to work on his messaging. He needs to fight the perception that fighting income inequality is only about white working class voters, when it is so obviously about much more than that. He needs to amplify how much his policies are going to help everyone. Young POC are on his side in numbers that largely go unreported, and he needs to build on that.

I'm supporting Sanders because his policies are the best. He absolutely needs to improve in his outreach to minorities, and he needs to improve some of his other policies. His healthcare bill, for example, is not comprehensive enough, and he should throw his support behind the Jayapal bill. He needs to state unequivocally that he has been wrong about voting against lawsuits against gun manufacturers.

Warren is a distant second, but would also clearly be better than the rest of the field. I thought she was DOA after the disastrous DNA test nonsense, but her messaging since announcing has been surprisingly strong, consistent, and coherent.

The rest of the field bums me out.
Good post. The issue with me was not so much Bernie in the end. I started out as a Sanders supporter even though i really liked and admired Clinton, he did resonate with me. But as the primary wore on, well, a high percentage of his supporters were just rampant assholes to be honest. And you're right, what started as a campaign to inject more left ideas, I believe went straight to his head and instead of bowing out after Super Tuesday, or after NY and having some deal making with Clinton at that point, he seemed to get angrier and more dug in, which in turn made his supporters do the same.
By the time he tepidly supported Clinton, it was way to late.
For that, I will always have some animosity towards him. If he gets the nomination I will push children and old ladies out of the way to vote for him, but I'm still either looking at Harris and/or hoping Biden announces soon.

He has more issues than just guns and his slimy agreement with the NRA to win his Senate seat, and as i stated earlier, his shortfalls in "progressive" issues over the years is completely ignored. Clinton had a lifelong purpose of working for underprivileged and minority populations since she was 18 years old. Bernie most certainly has not.
Trust me that Bernie's many instances of non-progressiveness over the years will be glossed over again this time. But what will be interesting this time will be seeing the dynamic between Sanders and Warren. Will they clash? will they unite against the rest of the field? Very interesting indeed.

Bernie raised 6 million in 24 hours. 4 times the amount of the Harris and many times more than the rest. Surprised to see Warren only raised 300k! She may be more DOA than i had thought.

I think its a bit late for Bernie to make a lot of headway with African Americans over 40, and that will hurt him in the primary. If Biden enters that will also change things dramatically for him. You will see NH being quite the battle, Iowa will have a strong Klobuchar, and Biden to contend with, and SC will bring a very strong Biden and Harris. It's gonna be a wild ride for sure.

What i can say is that I believe we now have 2 solid fighters against Trump, with Bernie and Harris. and Hopefully a third with Biden. Klobuchar is such a condundrum to me. She really is getting lots of interest from midwest moderate voters, and i wouldn't count her out. Probably the best VP pick for Harris or Booker if it came to it.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:24 PM   #851
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Clinton had a lifelong purpose of working for underprivileged and minority populations since she was 18 years old. Bernie most certainly has not.
are you high?

he was at the 1963 civil rights march on washington where MLK gave the "i have a dream" speech, demonstrated against school and dorm segregation, marched in anti-vietnam protests (and that's just the 60s), but i guess that "most certainly" doesn't count as "working for underprivileged and minority populations" for almost his entire goddam life, somehow.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:30 PM   #852
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Like I said, they can’t all afford to be running so the $ will cause most of them to drop like flies. Gillibrand probably doesn’t even get past the exploratory committee stage.

I would find it kind of depressing if the two it came down to were Biden and Bernie - oooold white men part 19373. God forbid they saddle us with a Tim Kaine sort of VP. And yet still infinity x better than the current disaster.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:39 PM   #853
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Bernie raised 6 million in 24 hours.

Trump tweeted "Crazy Bernie has just entered the race. I wish him well"

So Bernie tweeted "What's crazy is that we have a President who is a racist, a sexist, a xenophobe, and a fraud" Bernie burn, I love it. You have to laugh at how accdg to Trump everyone is crazy but him. Narcissist trademark.

Bernie has a town hall next Monday night on CNN.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:45 PM   #854
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
He needs to

--do a better job of explaining how things will be paid for besides just saying he's going to tax the wealthy
--explain his record on guns
--explain the harassment issues his previous campaign apparently had
To the first question, I think it both is not difficult to do, and also does not matter. Most people do not care how things are paid for unless the thing that is being paid for is something they do not like. The Democratic method of technocracy to explain bills does not inspire anyone. Clinton's campaign in 2016 was a public message of "Trump is very rude" combined with "check out my website" to brag about having well thought out plans. No one gave a fuck about her website.

Centrists who claim to care about where the money is coming from for farther left policies are people who are fine with where we were under Bill Clinton and Obama.
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
What Bernie needs to do is to explain how his leftist populist appeal to white working class voters is going to extend to black and brown voters and not lose said whites them. Generally, white people dont like paying taxes because they think the government is taking their money and giving it to undeserving black and brown folks. It’s kind of been this way forever, and has been at the core of the GOP’s appeal since the Civil Rights Act. This is kind of a generalization, but the white something class hasn’t really been much of a model of racial harmony and acceptance historically.

We need to realize that populism — left or right — is a really tough fit for a vast, multiethnic society like the US. Demagoguing “millionaires and billionaires” isn’t going to last long, because every white man thinks there’s a chance he could be one someday.
That is true if you are concerned about trying to flip Trump voters, but that is not what Sanders' campaign is aimed at. It's a campaign that is not catering to the exact same group of people every general election has catered to for the past century. He's instead trying to appeal to young people who do not normally vote. There is a massive amount of potential there. A campaign with a laser focus on healthcare, student loan forgiveness, and minimum wage hikes is going to resonate across all demographics for people in the millennial generation. What you are saying only applies if you are still thinking in the Podesta/Mook "two suburban votes for every working class vote" strategy that lost in 2016. It's not trying to rebuild Bill Clinton or Obama's coalition.

The working class is not just white. Sanders does not need to cater to racists or racist sympathizers to effectively campaign on what he stands for.
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Good post. The issue with me was not so much Bernie in the end. I started out as a Sanders supporter even though i really liked and admired Clinton, he did resonate with me. But as the primary wore on, well, a high percentage of his supporters were just rampant assholes to be honest. And you're right, what started as a campaign to inject more left ideas, I believe went straight to his head and instead of bowing out after Super Tuesday, or after NY and having some deal making with Clinton at that point, he seemed to get angrier and more dug in, which in turn made his supporters do the same.
By the time he tepidly supported Clinton, it was way to late.
For that, I will always have some animosity towards him. If he gets the nomination I will push children and old ladies out of the way to vote for him, but I'm still either looking at Harris and/or hoping Biden announces soon.

He has more issues than just guns and his slimy agreement with the NRA to win his Senate seat, and as i stated earlier, his shortfalls in "progressive" issues over the years is completely ignored. Clinton had a lifelong purpose of working for underprivileged and minority populations since she was 18 years old. Bernie most certainly has not.
Trust me that Bernie's many instances of non-progressiveness over the years will be glossed over again this time. But what will be interesting this time will be seeing the dynamic between Sanders and Warren. Will they clash? will they unite against the rest of the field? Very interesting indeed.

Bernie raised 6 million in 24 hours. 4 times the amount of the Harris and many times more than the rest. Surprised to see Warren only raised 300k! She may be more DOA than i had thought.

I think its a bit late for Bernie to make a lot of headway with African Americans over 40, and that will hurt him in the primary. If Biden enters that will also change things dramatically for him. You will see NH being quite the battle, Iowa will have a strong Klobuchar, and Biden to contend with, and SC will bring a very strong Biden and Harris. It's gonna be a wild ride for sure.

What i can say is that I believe we now have 2 solid fighters against Trump, with Bernie and Harris. and Hopefully a third with Biden. Klobuchar is such a condundrum to me. She really is getting lots of interest from midwest moderate voters, and i wouldn't count her out. Probably the best VP pick for Harris or Booker if it came to it.
The whole "Sanders needs to denounce his online followers for the mean things they say" is extremely odd to me. To be honest, I found more of that coming from Clinton people than Sanders people, though both obviously exist. Clara Jeffrey of Mother Jones said something similar about Sanders needing to atone for his voters' sins, though refuses to address staff members of hers publicly calling for the murder of prominent Sanders supporters.

I think it's way overblown by a specific subset of the media class that engages online and had always thought they represented the "good" left by being party line Democrats. There is a generation of upper middle class Democrats that are used to people to their left being a punchline, and they cannot wrestle with the idea that they might have blind spots. There are undoubtedly select examples of people online going too far; they are using that as a cudgel to greatly exaggerate what happened and to smear Sanders simply because it was something that could finally define the uneasiness they felt from his campaign that they could not reconcile had much more to do with their own shortcomings in worldview.

Also, the not bowing out after Super Tuesday thing is a hilarious criticism, unless you think Clinton was wrong to do it to Obama. When Clinton did it to Obama, her explanation was that he could get shot like Bobby Kennedy. I still don't know why that does not come up more. Sanders stayed in it for a bit, then threw his support behind Clinton fully, and campaigned a crazy amount for her. And his primary voters went to Clinton in the general at a significantly higher percentage than Clinton's PUMA voters went to Obama in 2008.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:45 PM   #855
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are you high?

he was at the 1963 civil rights march on washington where MLK gave the "i have a dream" speech, demonstrated against school and dorm segregation, marched in anti-vietnam protests (and that's just the 60s), but i guess that "most certainly" doesn't count as "working for underprivileged and minority populations" for almost his entire goddam life, somehow.
seriously. He was at a march? He was against Vietnam? that was for minorities? come on man. I'm talking about working FOR people, for kids, for women, for underprivileged, for minorities. Not just going to a march, or demonstration.

In case you didn't know, which i'm sure you didn't. Here is what I'm talking about with Clinton.

• Appointed to Senator Walter Mondale's Subcommittee on Migratory Labor

• Co-founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families

• Staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund

• worked with teenagers incarcerated in adult prisons in South Carolina and families with disabled children in Massachusetts.

• as a 24-year-old law student, was working for Marian Wright Edelman, the civil rights activist and prominent advocate for children. Mrs. Edelman had sent her to Alabama to work undercover and prove that the Nixon administration was not enforcing the legal ban on granting tax-exempt status to so-called segregation academies, the estimated 200 private academies that sprang up in the South to cater to white families after a 1969 Supreme Court decision forced public schools to integrate.

• During her second year in law school, Hillary Clinton volunteered at Yale's Child Study Center, learning about new research on early childhood brain development, as well as New Haven Hospital, where she took on cases of child abuse and the city Legal Services, providing free legal service to the poor. Upon graduation from law school, she served as staff attorney for the Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts."

• Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic

• First female chair of the Legal Services Corporation

• First female partner at Rose Law Firm.

• civil litigation attorney

• twice listed by The National Law Journal as one of the hundred most influential lawyers in America

• Chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession

• created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth


• led a task force that reformed Arkansas's education system


• Instrumental in passage of the State Children's Health Insurance Program


• Promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses


• Successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health

• Helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice

• Initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act

• Helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.

• As secretary of state, She lobbied for the first-ever U.N. Human Rights Council resolution on human rights and declared that “gay rights are human rights.”

• led the charge on the Lilly Ledbetter Pay Equity Act

• At the Department of Justice, she helped create the office on Violence Against Women.


But please go on about how Bernie is the real defender of and life long advocate for marginalized people, because he went to a god damn march.
You claim NOT to be a Bernie bot. I think you have been exposed.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:47 PM   #856
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We should also remember that Bernie is a very shrewd politician. His background worries me, as does his total lack of foreign policy experience, and the fact that he’s been the Senator for about 600,000 white people in a gorgeous rural kingdom since forever.

But, by all means Bernie, go full throttle at the Russian asset currently occupying the White House.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:49 PM   #857
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In case you didn't know, which i'm sure you didn't.

...

You claim NOT to be a Bernie bot. I think you have been exposed.
be a little more of a condescending asshole, why don't you.

i say one thing as a rebuttal to something totally false that you literally made up out of your ass, and that instantly "exposes" me a "bernie bot". fuck off.

we get it, you hate bernie sanders. that's your prerogative. attack him if you want, there are lots of legitimate reasons you can do that over, but don't literally make shit up and then get pissy and childish when someone rebuts it.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:50 PM   #858
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Yay!
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:52 PM   #859
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We should also remember that Bernie is a very shrewd politician. His background worries me, as does his total lack of foreign policy experience, and the fact that he’s been the Senator for about 600,000 white people in a gorgeous rural kingdom since forever.

But, by all means Bernie, go full throttle at the Russian asset currently occupying the White House.
This is where I line up.

I also do care about how he plans on paying for everything, but I'm just a centrist
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:00 PM   #860
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To the first question, I think it both is not difficult to do, and also does not matter. Most people do not care how things are paid for unless the thing that is being paid for is something they do not like. The Democratic method of technocracy to explain bills does not inspire anyone. Clinton's campaign in 2016 was a public message of "Trump is very rude" combined with "check out my website" to brag about having well thought out plans. No one gave a fuck about her website.

Centrists who claim to care about where the money is coming from for farther left policies are people who are fine with where we were under Bill Clinton and Obama.

That is true if you are concerned about trying to flip Trump voters, but that is not what Sanders' campaign is aimed at. It's a campaign that is not catering to the exact same group of people every general election has catered to for the past century. He's instead trying to appeal to young people who do not normally vote. There is a massive amount of potential there. A campaign with a laser focus on healthcare, student loan forgiveness, and minimum wage hikes is going to resonate across all demographics for people in the millennial generation. What you are saying only applies if you are still thinking in the Podesta/Mook "two suburban votes for every working class vote" strategy that lost in 2016. It's not trying to rebuild Bill Clinton or Obama's coalition.

The working class is not just white. Sanders does not need to cater to racists or racist sympathizers to effectively campaign on what he stands for.

The whole "Sanders needs to denounce his online followers for the mean things they say" is extremely odd to me. To be honest, I found more of that coming from Clinton people than Sanders people, though both obviously exist. Clara Jeffrey of Mother Jones said something similar about Sanders needing to atone for his voters' sins, though refuses to address staff members of hers publicly calling for the murder of prominent Sanders supporters.

I think it's way overblown by a specific subset of the media class that engages online and had always thought they represented the "good" left by being party line Democrats. There is a generation of upper middle class Democrats that are used to people to their left being a punchline, and they cannot wrestle with the idea that they might have blind spots. There are undoubtedly select examples of people online going too far; they are using that as a cudgel to greatly exaggerate what happened and to smear Sanders simply because it was something that could finally define the uneasiness they felt from his campaign that they could not reconcile had much more to do with their own shortcomings in worldview.

Also, the not bowing out after Super Tuesday thing is a hilarious criticism, unless you think Clinton was wrong to do it to Obama. When Clinton did it to Obama, her explanation was that he could get shot like Bobby Kennedy. I still don't know why that does not come up more. Sanders stayed in it for a bit, then threw his support behind Clinton fully, and campaigned a crazy amount for her. And his primary voters went to Clinton in the general at a significantly higher percentage than Clinton's PUMA voters went to Obama in 2008.
He did not campaign a crazy amount for her. He could have gone out non-stop with a full endorsemet, but he did not do that. Every speech he gave was an obvious half-hearted, "well, she's better than Trump" joke. He sat like a spoiled child at the convention while his supporter disrupted. He just soaked it in, and sulked. Please don't rewrite reality. I'm telling you from first hand experience that Bernie supporters were absolutely scary on Twitter. I finally just deleted my account, and I wasn't even against Bernie! that's how off the rails they were. If i just said, well, he did have some questionable votes. and I don' t like his history on guns. BAM, attacked by dozens and dozens of supporters.
Justifying it is kinda sad. They are the equivalent of the Trump base. Impervious to facts, excusing of all things counter to their worship of Bernie and fairly vile in their interaction with people who dare bring up anything contrary to their view. It was a rare even-tempered, considerate Bernie supporter I would run into toward the end, and I would thank them for being decent.
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