US Politics XII: shutting down Interference until @U2 agrees to pay for a firewall

[Popmartijn]

I would suppose the point of so much being in one bill with the name “new deal” is because it’s supposed to emulate FDR’s New Deal, which was obviously (as you probably already know) a massive economic program centered around numerous things from unemployment to financial reform.

“Green” new deal, I would suppose, is another “new deal” meant to broadly address numerous problems, with an emphasis on doing it in a green fashion (if applicable).

But the original New Deal of 85 years ago never was just one bill with everything. It consisted of several acts. In total it was a massive economic program, but it was made up of smaller packages.
So why throw everything together now in one bill, one that isn't even specific enough to detail exactly how certain policies are achieved? It almost certainly contains something for everyone not to be content with. In total it gives almost everyone an excuse to vote against it. Especially in today's hyper-partisan political environment, where there's almost no political capital to spend, I don't think it's wise to just dump such a bill on the floor of Congress. It might work as a manifest (though every job created should be a union job, really?), but as an actual bill that can become law, the creators should have known that chances to get it passed are zero. And that it'll be used as a stick to hit the Democrats with, both those that vote for and against it.

You said that you want bold ideas, real change instead of just small incremental steps. But even then the proposals should be realistic. A big proposed change that does not get passed is less progress than several smaller ones that do become law.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

But the original New Deal of 85 years ago never was just one bill with everything. It consisted of several acts. In total it was a massive economic program, but it was made up of smaller packages.

So why throw everything together now in one bill, one that isn't even specific enough to detail exactly how certain policies are achieved? It almost certainly contains something for everyone not to be content with. In total it gives almost everyone an excuse to vote against it. Especially in today's hyper-partisan political environment, where there's almost no political capital to spend, I don't think it's wise to just dump such a bill on the floor of Congress. It might work as a manifest (though every job created should be a union job, really?), but as an actual bill that can become law, the creators should have known that chances to get it passed are zero. And that it'll be used as a stick to hit the Democrats with, both those that vote for and against it.



You said that you want bold ideas, real change instead of just small incremental steps. But even then the proposals should be realistic. A big proposed change that does not get passed is less progress than several smaller ones that do become law.

Well you’re talking about a newly elected President after the worst economic crisis in the history of the country, with all the firepower and green lights he needed... comparing that to a newly elected 29 year old congresswoman.

I think one was more likely to be successful at passing all of their legislation to set up a new system than the other.

Also I think you brushed over the part where I said I’m not even endorsing it. I just wasn’t having it reading it’s a purely self centered egotistical bill so she could say she tried and there’s no other logical explanation. You. Know. That’s. Not. True.

 

[BEAL]

Who does this sound like???

https://twitter.com/kaivanshroff/status/1100257926328057856?s=21

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

It should be law for any presidental candidate to release his or her tax returns and anyone who doesn't is instantly suspicious and not someone who I will vote in any normal circumstance.

 

[womanfish]

Who does this sound like???

https://twitter.com/kaivanshroff/status/1100257926328057856?s=21

I didn't watch, but not sure if anything came up about his wife's shady dealings. That will be another hit on him. Luckily for him, his fans will explain the tax returns and anything else away. That also sounds familiar...

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I'm not a Bernie fan, but not everyone who is a fan is a sycophantic wackadoodle - so in the interest of not turning the Democratic nomination process into a complete shit show, perhaps we don't refer to ok every Bernie supporter as such.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

It should be law for any presidental candidate to release his or her tax returns and anyone who doesn't is instantly suspicious and not someone who I will vote in any normal circumstance.

Agreed. To add to that, it’s become also symbolic at this point. What have you to hide?

 

[womanfish]

I'm not a Bernie fan, but not everyone who is a fan is a sycophantic wackadoodle - so in the interest of not turning the Democratic nomination process into a complete shit show, perhaps we don't refer to ok every Bernie supporter as such.

That's why I said Bernie "fans".
To me, the solid, immovable base of Trump and Bernie supporters are FANS. They are following a personality, not a candidate and their issues. I have been very clear that I like Bernie. The money he's raising puts him in a definite lead position, and if he's the nominee, then I'm all in. He may very well be my choice if he has the best message to me during the primaries and debates. Who knows.
I am quite aware that not every Bernie supporter is a wackjob. I don't even think most of the solid base are wackjobs, i do think that they overlook a lot of issues of Sanders' that would be troublesome if it were another candidate. Doesn't make them a wackjob, just a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

 

[Popmartijn]

I didn't watch, but not sure if anything came up about his wife's shady dealings. That will be another hit on him. Luckily for him, his fans will explain the tax returns and anything else away. That also sounds familiar...

Still, he might have some issues then securing enough votes in the presidential elections, should he become the candidate.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...es-bill-that-would-keep-trump-off-2020-ballot
Though the bill mentioned might be primarily aimed at feuding with Trump, it will then also apply to Bernie.

 

[womanfish]

Still, he might have some issues then securing enough votes in the presidential elections, should he become the candidate.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...es-bill-that-would-keep-trump-off-2020-ballot
Though the bill mentioned might be primarily aimed at feuding with Trump, it will then also apply to Bernie.

seriously surprised that California hasn't passed something like this. NJ is one thing, but a Dem can't win without the electoral votes from CA.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

NVM

I'm just here so I don't get fined

 

[DaveC]

Still, he might have some issues then securing enough votes in the presidential elections, should he become the candidate.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...es-bill-that-would-keep-trump-off-2020-ballot
Though the bill mentioned might be primarily aimed at feuding with Trump, it will then also apply to Bernie.

holy hell that's a historically bad idea. aside from being almost certainly unconstitutional, it's a terrible precedent to set.

what's stopping a republican-controlled state congress in a swing state like florida or ohio from refusing to allow a democratic presidential candidate on the ballot unless they pledge to, say, never introduce any gun control or public healthcare measure, or work to overturn roe v wade?

 

[womanfish]

holy hell that's a historically bad idea. aside from being almost certainly unconstitutional, it's a terrible precedent to set.

what's stopping a republican-controlled state congress in a swing state like florida or ohio from refusing to allow a democratic presidential candidate on the ballot unless they pledge to, say, never introduce any gun control or public healthcare measure, or work to overturn roe v wade?

Very good point. Leaving this sort of things to the states would be a pandora's box. Would be nice to have the Legislative branch pass a law or provision or whatever it would be called, that any member of any party running for president would need to release a certain number of tax returns, financial records etc, in order to be sure there is no conflict of interest or possibility of blackmail by outside forces.
But that would be a crazy longshot that republicans would ever do something like tha.

 

[womanfish]

double post

 

[Jerry Dunk]

That's why I said Bernie "fans".
To me, the solid, immovable base of Trump and Bernie supporters are FANS. They are following a personality, not a candidate and their issues. I have been very clear that I like Bernie. The money he's raising puts him in a definite lead position, and if he's the nominee, then I'm all in. He may very well be my choice if he has the best message to me during the primaries and debates. Who knows.
I am quite aware that not every Bernie supporter is a wackjob. I don't even think most of the solid base are wackjobs, i do think that they overlook a lot of issues of Sanders' that would be troublesome if it were another candidate. Doesn't make them a wackjob, just a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

Sanders definitely has "fans," and depending on how it's expressed it can range from amusing to irritating to actively harmful, but that is part for the course for really any politician who has fans.

I would argue someone who loves Hillary Clinton is more about fandom. Because she stood for very little; most of her positions changed at various times throughout her career. There are no defining policies or positions that people want to carry on for her legacy; it's just an archetype.

Whereas the "fandom" of Sanders is rooted, for many, in the fact that he is the ONLY national politician to take many of the stands he has in our lifetimes, and many of them are backed up in decades of consistently fighting for them. His stances on the economy, healthcare, and the environment are all examples of this. I do not think there is a great yearning from young people to love a 70-something cranky white man from New England. It really comes down to the fact that he is offering something people have wanted and have consistently been told is not possible by people who lack the creativity or the interest in thinking of ways to change the world.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

Also, this thread is very amusing to me. The corporate Dem machine is out en force much earlier this time around:

[tweet]1100385598597152768[/tweet]

To be clear, my issue is not that people are asking Sanders legitimate questions. Rather, it's obfuscating when those questions are coming from political operatives with specific goals and interests, and doing so intentionally. It reminds me of that writer who supposedly traveled the country talking to "real voters" and never bothered to mention how often they had political careers.

 

[trojanchick99]

Wow. This seems illegal. I mean I’m no lawyer but a Congressman sending an intimidating message to a person testifying before Congress seems bad.

[TWEET]1100503846386835456[/TWEET]

 

[trojanchick99]

Twitter has banned Jacob Wohl!

He's "famous" for that pitiful attempt at smearing Robert Mueller with a fake harrassment claim. He's also "known" for posting tweets claiming liberals at various hipster coffee houses in LA are secret Trump supporters. I for one will miss dunking on him repeatedly.

 

[DaveC]

Wow. This seems illegal. I mean I’m no lawyer but a Congressman sending an intimidating message to a person testifying before Congress seems bad.

[TWEET]1100503846386835456[/TWEET]

it would be 100% illegal to attempt to blackmail a witness in a face to face situation the day before they're supposed to testify in court. i don't see how this is any different.

of course it's all moot, because absolutely nothing will happen to him.

 

[anitram]

Is Matt Gaetz the same asshole from Florida who wanted to kick out the Parkland fathers from public congressional hearings on gun control (they stood up and yelled when he claimed that the biggest issue in gun control is the lack of a wall on the southern border)?

 

[trojanchick99]

Is Matt Gaetz the same asshole from Florida who wanted to kick out the Parkland fathers from public congressional hearings on gun control (they stood up and yelled when he claimed that the biggest issue in gun control is the lack of a wall on the southern border)?

Yes, he's the same asshole.

 

[anitram]

He has an extraordinarily punchable face.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Is Matt Gaetz the same asshole from Florida who wanted to kick out the Parkland fathers from public congressional hearings on gun control (they stood up and yelled when he claimed that the biggest issue in gun control is the lack of a wall on the southern border)?

I don’t know if Matt Gaetz did that but there’s no reason to believe he didn’t. He’s a mega dbag.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Yes I do remember this now actually. He also went on some rant about the wall in their faces. Like they cared about a wall.

 

[BEAL]

https://twitter.com/_celia_bedelia_/status/1100538733621858305?s=21

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Don’t you think you’ve gone a little off the deep end

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Twitter has banned Jacob Wohl! [emoji38]

He's "famous" for that pitiful attempt at smearing Robert Mueller with a fake harrassment claim. He's also "known" for posting tweets claiming liberals at various hipster coffee houses in LA are secret Trump supporters. I for one will miss dunking on him repeatedly.

 

[Jerry Dunk]

He and Laura Loomer are going to have an adorable date handcuffed to the headquarters of Twitter in bulletproof vests.

 

[anitram]

His father is also batshit crazy, which makes sense because any normal parent would have locked him up in their basement by now.

 

[DaveC]

i guess the "bone spurs" deferment finally expired.

https://twitter.com/JonLemire/status/1100606289376411648