US Politics XII: shutting down Interference until @U2 agrees to pay for a firewall

[trojanchick99]

Bill and Barack had charisma for days, hearing them speak was magic. I'm not sure any candidates since have that kind of magic, it's rare.

As for "identity" politics, the GOP with their racist policies are doing a great job of driving the minority vote. In California, the Latinx vote was at presidential election levels during the mid-terms. That likely cost the GOP 7 seats in CA alone. As a Latina, I'll vote for any Dem candidate, but I have to say I will cry if a woman is finally elected. Representation matters. It really does.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I have no skin in this game about who the Democrats nominate, but IMHO, this focus on identity politics is a big part of the problem.



"She's white, so no minorities will vote for her", "He's a white male, no women will vote for him."



The person that would win a general election has to galvanize people with ideas, not their identity.



I voted for Barack Obama in 2008 not based on who he was, but based on his ideas and quality as a candidate. Now whether I think he lived up to candidate Obama as President Obama is a different issue, but IMO, he was the best candidate based on his vision and ideas.



That's what the Dems need, not who check off what box as far as gender, race, etc.

I am a fan of this post.

 

[DaveC]

i love how mister "all taxes are socialist theft" is trying to gaslight us into believing that he used to be a democrat, and voted for obama.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

i love how mister "all taxes are socialist theft" is trying to gaslight us into believing that he used to be a democrat, and voted for obama.

Take the point made for what it’s worth. It’s true.

 

[womanfish]

Sigh, you've proved my point.

I am a white male, and an independent conservative. I am not a Republican, both parties completely suck for the most part as far as I'm concerned.

Conservatives, for the most part, are more interested in ideas, rather than identity.

I also am a recovered liberal, a former Democrat, so I am very familiar with all of these talking points, but that's all they are. They are not based in reality.

That's part of the reason why there are growing black and hispanic movements within conservatism because they have realized that they don't HAVE to be Democrats, even though that's what they've been told their whole lives.

Think what you want, but if you think identity politics is the future, and will give us healthy leadership, or that it will win the Democrats the Presidency, I have to disagree with you.

I've proved YOUR point?? LMAO!!! That's rich. You sound like Schultz. "I don't see color"! Yeah, that's not something to brag about. That's what white, privileged people say when they don't want to spend one moment trying to understand the history and point of view of minorities.

A recovered liberal? what a joke. It's just being too lazy to actually care about trying to think that there are millions of people that have not had the same white male upbringing that you have. But you have fun with that. Your choice will be between some version of a liberal and worst human being to grace this earth. So there's that.

 

[DaveC]

Take the point made for what it’s worth. It’s true.

sure it's true, in fantasyland.

 

[Gzusfrk]

I've proved YOUR point?? LMAO!!! That's rich. You sound like Schultz. "I don't see color"! Yeah, that's not something to brag about. That's what white, privileged people say when they don't want to spend one moment trying to understand the history and point of view of minorities.

A recovered liberal? what a joke. It's just being too lazy to actually care about trying to think that there are millions of people that have not had the same white male upbringing that you have. But you have fun with that. Your choice will be between some version of a liberal and worst human being to grace this earth. So there's that.

I don't care enough about what you guys think to lie, just stating an opinion, but the responses speak volumes

 

[DaveC]

"i don't care enough about what you guys think", says guy who constantly whines about what we think.

 

[womanfish]

Bill and Barack had charisma for days, hearing them speak was magic. I'm not sure any candidates since have that kind of magic, it's rare.

As for "identity" politics, the GOP with their racist policies are doing a great job of driving the minority vote. In California, the Latinx vote was at presidential election levels during the mid-terms. That likely cost the GOP 7 seats in CA alone. As a Latina, I'll vote for any Dem candidate, but I have to say I will cry if a woman is finally elected. Representation matters. It really does.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Bill and Barack had charisma for days, hearing them speak was magic. I'm not sure any candidates since have that kind of magic, it's rare.

As for "identity" politics, the GOP with their racist policies are doing a great job of driving the minority vote. In California, the Latinx vote was at presidential election levels during the mid-terms. That likely cost the GOP 7 seats in CA alone. As a Latina, I'll vote for any Dem candidate, but I have to say I will cry if a woman is finally elected. Representation matters. It really does.

This. I too will be beyond happy if a woman finally becomes president at long last (and it'd be especially appropriate if we get a female president next year, given 2020 will mark 100 years that women have had the right to vote). I'm glad we've got so many women in the running as it is.

Did anyone watch the town hall with Amy Klobuchar last night? I was impressed by her answers and demeanor. She was a natural in that format.

She was actually downtown at my mall this past weekend. I was working at the time, so I didn't get a chance to go see her, but I did hear some of her speech here and there because it was happening just outside my workplace. There was a nice little crowd of people there to see her . I definitely agree she'll appeal to people in the Midwest, but I can see where she might need to get her name out there a little more beyond this area of the country.

 

[Irvine511]

Sigh, you've proved my point.


Conservatives, for the most part, are more interested in ideas, rather than identity.

now this is nonsense, and it has been since at least the election of George W Bush.

you can play the "No True Conservative" game all you want, but this is where conservatives have brought us -- to the Trump presidency. it's yours, you own it, and playing cute ("recovering liberal") is part of it.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

sure it's true, in fantasyland.

The point, about energizing everyone and how identity politics aren’t winning any votes outside of a specific demographic. Some people care. Some people are racist/sexist/homophobic. Some people flat out don’t give a shit. Fair enough to flip the bird at the middle group and elect a Muslim gay half black half Hispanic woman. But you have to figure there’s a solid amount of people between the two other groups of folks who genuinely don’t care as long as they’re getting what they want.

 

[Gzusfrk]

"i don't care enough about what you guys think", says guy who constantly whines about what we think.

You really do read selectively don't you.............

I don't care what you guys think ENOUGH TO LIE

I like a good political discussion, so when we're able to have one, I join in.

And I usually step out when the personal attacks and juvenile snarkiness start.....like this.

 

[Gzusfrk]

now this is nonsense, and it has been since at least the election of George W Bush.

you can play the "No True Conservative" game all you want, but this is where conservatives have brought us -- to the Trump presidency. it's yours, you own it, and playing cute ("recovering liberal") is part of it.

I believe that a true conservative is idea oriented , rather than identity. Notice I'm not saying Republicans, because most Republicans are as corrupt and blinded as the Democrats.

Many will agree with much of Trump's policy, because it's the policy they believe in, not Trump. Again, I'm not talking about blindly supporting Trump, but having ideas and policies that you believe in , and maybe Trump, or McConnell or whoever, supports it as well.

Not saying all, just like not ALL Democrats are identity based politicians, but obviously many are., and from my experience, the majority are. Again, this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree

 

[DaveC]

wanting candidates and parties not to focus on identity politics in 2019-20 is like wanting them not to focus on social media. they no longer have a choice if they want to win. it's part of the game now whether we like it or not.

 

[DaveC]

.

 

[Irvine511]

So the idea you have is “A True Conservative ...” where you project a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.

 

[IWasBored]

Bill and Barack had charisma for days, hearing them speak was magic. I'm not sure any candidates since have that kind of magic, it's rare.

As for "identity" politics, the GOP with their racist policies are doing a great job of driving the minority vote. In California, the Latinx vote was at presidential election levels during the mid-terms. That likely cost the GOP 7 seats in CA alone. As a Latina, I'll vote for any Dem candidate, but I have to say I will cry if a woman is finally elected. Representation matters. It really does.

It does matter, and it’s also not the same as likability or relatability (in the “GWB is the kind of guy I’d like to have a beer with” way). All three of them play a part in swaying opinions on both sides of the aisle. They’re not irrelevant things like jesusfreak suggests they should be*, and it’s not the single most important factor like womanfish suggests they should be.

Likability and relatability are abstract feelings I don’t personally understand weighing as part of my decision when I vote. That makes me want to agree with Gfreak’s initial point, which is not a thing I say lightly. Representation though, is a thing that is intrinsically related to actual issues. To trojanchick’s point above about the Latinx vote in CA, you can’t separate representation from a genuine response to this current administration’s immigration policies. If I was Latino in CA and my district ran a Democrat candidate who looked like me, that’s all it would take for them to have my vote because I’d feeler safer that maybe someone was trying to protect my right to be in my
own country. I didn’t vote for Jared Polis just because he’s gay, but in a state where we have the famous homophobic cake shop, knowing a Trump sycophant-type isn’t my governor makes me feel a little safer. It’s not just about an identity, or a personal feeling that you’d want to be friends with someone. The desire for representation comes from a much more substantial place.


*Irvine already covered it, but it’s laughable to say Republicans are less susceptible to voting for someone that looks like them over has the same beliefs as them than Democrats are. Forget the GWB thing, this is a big part of why were in the mess we’re in currently. All those working class white people and racist suburbanites who were mad about a black guy being in the white house weren’t looking for representation?

 

[Irvine511]

wanting candidates and parties not to focus on identity politics in 2019-20 is like wanting them not to focus on social media. they no longer have a choice if they want to win. it's part of the game now whether we like it or not.

The GOP is fully focused on white identity politics. So this is very much a “both sides” thing.

 

[trojanchick99]

The GOP is fully focused on white identity politics. So this is very much a “both sides” thing.

This. The GOP is running on racism. Trump announced his campaign by calling Mexicans rapists and I will never ever forget that.

 

[Irvine511]

This. The GOP is running on racism. Trump announced his campaign by calling Mexicans rapists and I will never ever forget that.

But no True Conservative would ever call a Mexican a rapist, because conservatives have a really stellar record when it comes to not being racists.

 

[anitram]

I think anybody who thinks that members of marginalized groups historically, be it women or people of colour, or non-Christians, or LGBTQ, etc, would NOT have unique perspectives that would be meaningful in an administration must be totally delusional.

There is actually a ton of research that supports this. A lot of it was done on boards of directors of large public (Fortune 500 type) companies. They looked specifically at gender and found that board functioned better with women on them BUT you only start to see the difference once you reach a critical mass. In terms of boards, which tend to be in the 10-15 member range, it's 3 women. Why? Because one woman by herself is seen as a token and not embraced into the fold by the remaining men and she does not ever fully belong with them socially. With two you actually saw them pitted against one another because each was trying to prove her worth and trying to align herself with the group she perceived to be most in her interest rather than aligning with the other woman. With three, they actually started to function as a cohesive unit and more importantly, started to bring about tangible change in how the board functioned, the discourse, the different approaches to problem solving and so on. This is real and basically undisputed among social scientists. When you translate it to government, it is not too different - you need a critical mass of members of minority groups for those groups to have active voices.

There have literally been 45 presidents. 44 of whom were straight, white men and I think also Christian (possibly one or two were non-denominational or unaffiliated 200 yrs ago) and one was a black, straight, Christian male (and even with him, how many Americans thought he was a) not American and b) Muslim?). But heaven forbid that anybody outside of this majority group (Obama excepted) felt like maybe, just maybe, their beliefs, values and life experiences would be better represented by somebody who came from a background more similar than theirs? That's identity politics. But all those "economic anxiety" white voters we are forced to sympathize with at least once a week, oh no, for them "colour doesn't matter". I mean what Grade A bullshit.

 

[trojanchick99]

But no True Conservative would ever call a Mexican a rapist, because conservatives have a really stellar record when it comes to not being racists.

I mean they aren't racist, they just want the KKK to lynch Democrats.

[TWEET]1097757677139214336[/TWEET]

 

[Irvine511]

I mean they aren't racist, they just want the KKK to lynch Democrats.

[TWEET]1097757677139214336[/TWEET]

Not a True Conservative.

If it’s a bad thing, it isn’t Truly Conservative.

 

[anitram]

Not a True Conservative.

If it’s a bad thing, it isn’t Truly Conservative.

This is what they are all trying to sell to us - conservatism can't fail, it's perfect. Anything bad is just not conservative. But they'll vote for "conservatives" anyway.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

But no True Conservative would ever call a Mexican a rapist, because conservatives have a really stellar record when it comes to not being racists.

Wat u mean tho linkin was a republican

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Low key tho I didn’t like linkin. States rights not states lefts lmaoflsmao rofl r/deepstate

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I think anybody who thinks that members of marginalized groups historically, be it women or people of colour, or non-Christians, or LGBTQ, etc, would NOT have unique perspectives that would be meaningful in an administration must be totally delusional.

There is actually a ton of research that supports this. A lot of it was done on boards of directors of large public (Fortune 500 type) companies. They looked specifically at gender and found that board functioned better with women on them BUT you only start to see the difference once you reach a critical mass. In terms of boards, which tend to be in the 10-15 member range, it's 3 women. Why? Because one woman by herself is seen as a token and not embraced into the fold by the remaining men and she does not ever fully belong with them socially. With two you actually saw them pitted against one another because each was trying to prove her worth and trying to align herself with the group she perceived to be most in her interest rather than aligning with the other woman. With three, they actually started to function as a cohesive unit and more importantly, started to bring about tangible change in how the board functioned, the discourse, the different approaches to problem solving and so on. This is real and basically undisputed among social scientists. When you translate it to government, it is not too different - you need a critical mass of members of minority groups for those groups to have active voices.

There have literally been 45 presidents. 44 of whom were straight, white men and I think also Christian (possibly one or two were non-denominational or unaffiliated 200 yrs ago) and one was a black, straight, Christian male (and even with him, how many Americans thought he was a) not American and b) Muslim?). But heaven forbid that anybody outside of this majority group (Obama excepted) felt like maybe, just maybe, their beliefs, values and life experiences would be better represented by somebody who came from a background more similar than theirs? That's identity politics. But all those "economic anxiety" white voters we are forced to sympathize with at least once a week, oh no, for them "colour doesn't matter". I mean what Grade A bullshit.

This post is awesome and spot on .

Wat u mean tho linkin was a republican

I always get a kick out of how Republicans say that...and yet they're the same people going around trying to explain why we really need to keep these Confederate statues up and whatnot.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

https://www.boston.com/news/media/2019/02/19/cnn-hires-a-prominent-conservative-to-help-direct-its-political-coverage

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I believe that a true conservative is idea oriented , rather than identity. Notice I'm not saying Republicans, because most Republicans are as corrupt and blinded as the Democrats.



Many will agree with much of Trump's policy, because it's the policy they believe in, not Trump. Again, I'm not talking about blindly supporting Trump, but having ideas and policies that you believe in , and maybe Trump, or McConnell or whoever, supports it as well.



Not saying all, just like not ALL Democrats are identity based politicians, but obviously many are., and from my experience, the majority are. Again, this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree

The border wall, travel bans and gigantic tax cuts for the wealthy were so totally policies built on ideas, not on one's identity.