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Old 08-15-2018, 07:04 PM   #861
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^ Agreed. The realistic argument isn't about whether taxes in general are theft, or even if a progressive tax system is fair. Canada and America are beyond those questions.



The real fights are the rate levels, and where the tax revenue is actually going. Those are good fights to have.


This I can agree with
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Old 08-15-2018, 07:40 PM   #862
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I wish it was 1912 again. This country sucks now. Back in 1912 was when it was the best.
Well Trump wasn't President then so bonus points for that.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:30 PM   #863
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Bingo.

The Republicans jumped on board for Trump even though most knew they shouldn't. They are all in at any cost, even to a fault - and they're setting up to reverse decades of progress because of this. The country is primed to move right (even though the majority want it to move left - thanks founding fathers!) and stay right for the foreseeable future.

This could have horrifying ramifications for everyone who isn't a straight white person of upper middle class stature or above.

Meanwhile the Democrats just keep bickering over how far to the left you are.

Anyone who's outraged by this president needs to unite and elect Democrats and independents en masse this November - whether or not they're a socialist or a DINO.

I don't agree with everything Oscaio-Cortez stands for. But if I was still in NYC and she was in my district you're god damn right I'd be voting for her.

I sure as shit don't agree with Joe Donnelly either, but if he were the candidate in blue in my district, yea - he gets my vote.

You need to take Congress back by any means necessary if you want to get the country headed back to the left again, and then you need to hold on to it.

You need to fight like hell to reverse the effects of gerrymandering, and to keep majority controll through 2020, so that we can clean up this mess, restore our standing internationally, and hopefully salvage what's left of the supreme court.

And fuck they go low we go high - we need to fight dirty and use the same tactics that set us on this course in the first place.

Otherwise we are truly and wholly fucked.
Fecking THIS!!!

We can't do anything or that much UNLESS we get the The House back, and The Senate IF we can this year!

And I sure as hell voted in 2010!
Not sure yet how I will participate in Get Out And he Vote this year, but I will; as I have in different ways before in years, and decades past!

While some of our differences are not so small - they're a hell of a lot LESS defferent than what most Republicans, Conservatives, White Supremacists, and Neo-Nazis believe!!!
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:51 AM   #864
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Well Trump wasn't President then so bonus points for that.
I wouldn't have cared for TR or Woodrow Wilson. Were they really any better?
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:14 AM   #865
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oh that's right you guys, we forgot about that time woodrow wilson bragged about how easy it was for him to sexually assault women, and all the praise theodore roosevelt heaped on foreign enemy dictators. i guess they're all the same.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:34 AM   #866
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says the person who insists on reminding strangers on the internet over and over again about how generously they give to charity despite never once having been asked.
You sir, have a strange way of misquoting, number one, making blatant exaggerated statements, two, seem to have lots of trouble with dissenting opinions.

I mentioned one time that I give charitably, and I must have really struck a nerve with you (and others) about giving and compassion.

I won't ask how much you pay in taxes because I don't care, but many liberals here are scared to death of the possibility that people who need help could be helped by charity rather than the government. Which again, takes the onus off of most people who typically scream for socialism or more and more free stuff.

Many of you say it won't be enough money, because you don't trust people to give out of their own money??

I never said Christian conservatives are the only ones who give to charity, but some facts, and I know that word bothers you as well:

More conservatives give to and volunteer for charity

If you look at all the homeless shelters, orphanages, food banks and pantries in America, most are run by Christian churches or Christian organizations. Sorry.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:39 AM   #867
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I wish it was 1912 again. This country sucks now. Back in 1912 was when it was the best.
Once again, deflecting. This is why it's nearly impossible to have a mature discussion with leftists on this forum, because like this comment, you think some snarky, "smartest guy in the room" comment furthers the discussion.

The point is, the whole idea "well we will have nothing if we don't have all these taxes" proves you have drank the Kool Aid and never gave a second thought about it.

Don't research the history of the income tax, and all these other taxes we HAVE to pay and prove we are "loving compassionate people", no skin off my nose.

Why are you all so against having MORE of the money YOU earn given back to you by the Almighty Government. Then you can give to everyone and every organization you want!

Problem is, sounds like most of don't trust yourselves to do it, so you have to be forced by taxes. Sounds real "loving and compassionate" to me.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:45 AM   #868
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I'd love to hear how many of you who speak so bravely about socialism and BIG government being the "answer" and "wave of the future" would be honest enough to tell us that YOU yourself would benefit from "income redistribution" or "government aid".

I myself, would probably benefit from it, but I think it's wrong and immoral. Like I told anitram, who was brave enough to share her income status, I don't think ANYONE is entitled to her money. She has earned it, was given it, whatever. It doesn't matter.

Those who think "it's not fair" are greedy and jealous. Sorry, life's not always fair. We ALL have equal opportunities to succeed (though some of you STILL think you can't if you're not a white male, which is completely proven false), but you want equal results. That's ridiculous, IMO.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:50 AM   #869
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I never said Christian conservatives are the only ones who give to charity, but some facts, and I know that word bothers you as well:

More conservatives give to and volunteer for charity

If you look at all the homeless shelters, orphanages, food banks and pantries in America, most are run by Christian churches or Christian organizations. Sorry.
do you have anything in terms of statistics or sources (you know, "facts") that actualy backs any of this up or are we supposed to just take your word for it

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This is why it's nearly impossible to have a mature discussion with leftists on this forum, because like this comment, you think some snarky, "smartest guy in the room" comment furthers the discussion.
i've tried to have a "mature discussion" with you like ten times dude and you've always ignored my posts. literally every single time. so don't whine and play the victim card like you're the only one trying to actually engage here. i'm getting pretty sick of you coming in here and acting like we're all being dishonest and shady because we're not posting in the exact way about the exact things that you arbitrarily decided that we should.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:56 AM   #870
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I'd love to hear how many of you who speak so bravely about socialism and BIG government being the "answer" and "wave of the future" would be honest enough to tell us that YOU yourself would benefit from "income redistribution" or "government aid".

I myself, would probably benefit from it, but I think it's wrong and immoral. Like I told anitram, who was brave enough to share her income status, I don't think ANYONE is entitled to her money. She has earned it, was given it, whatever. It doesn't matter.

Those who think "it's not fair" are greedy and jealous. Sorry, life's not always fair. We ALL have equal opportunities to succeed (though some of you STILL think you can't if you're not a white male, which is completely proven false), but you want equal results. That's ridiculous, IMO.
this is the shit i'm talking about.

all of these things have been said to you. repeatedly. by multiple people. this "everyone has equal opportunities" nonsense has specifically been refuted several times. YOU have chosen to ignore the responses in favour of yelling at strawmen and putting words in our mouths. you are being dishonest and that is YOUR fault.

take some fucking responsibility for once like you keep saying we "leftists" all need to do, don't be so damn lazy and actually take the effort to thoughtfully reply to the actual words in the posts that are in response to what you say.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:09 AM   #871
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but many liberals here are scared to death of the possibility that people who need help could be helped by charity rather than the government.
Who is scared? I would love for charity to be able to do more, I just don't see how they have the systems in place to do certain things, i.e. healthcare.

No one is scared, you look moronic trying to play that card.

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More conservatives give to and volunteer for charity

If you look at all the homeless shelters, orphanages, food banks and pantries in America, most are run by Christian churches or Christian organizations. Sorry.
So Christian = conservative? :eyeroll:

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We ALL have equal opportunities to succeed (though some of you STILL think you can't if you're not a white male, which is completely proven false), but you want equal results. That's ridiculous, IMO.
So why aren't you a billionaire? Lazy?
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:52 AM   #872
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I'd love to hear how many of you who speak so bravely about socialism and BIG government being the "answer" and "wave of the future" would be honest enough to tell us that YOU yourself would benefit from "income redistribution" or "government aid".
I fully support a social safety net and a single-payer medical system, if you want to call that socialism or big government. I don't like the idea of hard working people going bankrupt because they get sick.

I would not benefit from income redistribution or government aid, other than the fact that I enjoy driving on interstate highways, not getting murdered in a lawless society, that sort of thing. I would guess that I paid about $65K in taxes last year including property tax.

I have never received a "government handout" in the traditional sense. I did benefit from low-interest student loans and a military scholarship, but both have been fully repaid either with cash or with time in service.

I certainly don't believe that only white males can be successful in America, but it is not a level playing field, and I have probably benefited from being one.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:14 PM   #873
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Charity will never, ever educate a population, fund an army, pay for your brain cancer, or make sure your spinach isn’t laced with listeria.

There are certain societal needs — housing, health care, education, transportation — that only government has the organizational capacity to address and regulate. It’s the mark of every civilized society.

This charity discussion is preposterous and juvenile.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:19 PM   #874
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Charity will never, ever educate a population, fund an army, pay for your brain cancer, or make sure your spinach isn’t laced with listeria.

There are certain societal needs — housing, health care, education, transportation — that only government has the organizational capacity to address and regulate. It’s the mark of every civilized society.

This charity discussion is preposterous and juvenile.
You're just a scared socialist.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:42 PM   #875
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Can we also take a huge step back and acknowledge that charity is incentivized in your tax?

And “Christian organizations” are very giving it’s true. And they use the tax system to their benefit as they should. Being charitable is good.

And let’s not pretend like there aren’t “Christian organizations” who abuse the system for their own riches and benefits.

Much like my schpeel about immigration, have a good system in place that is a careful balancing. The individual is free to be charitable in place of the government. Organizations are free to be charitable in place of the government.

To think a system relying on charity would work is insane. Our current charity system in terms of taxation is widely abused. What makes you think people will give out the same money that the government asks of them? What makes you think decentralization can achieve the same type of infrastructure and mass equivalence of entities such as a military?

We have awful bureaucracy and the government is ran like a bad company who can’t control overhead, this is true. But your ideological response is arrogant and unintelligent.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:46 PM   #876
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Why does the government being bloated and inefficient have anything to do with what they should be providing their people, anyways?

Hey, the government should provide health care and a safety net for the people.

Ehrmagahd big guvrnmunt is eeval!!!

The government should be a more efficient entity... that provides health care and a safety net for the people.

Why do some have to make them into separate issues? Go team go?
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:13 PM   #877
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Many "christian" entities also systematically cover up the sexual abuse of children.

So let's maybe not hold them up as the gold standard of all things good in the world.

Oh wait, no I forgot... that's the Democrats and their "pizza restaurants"

My bad.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:36 PM   #878
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And “Christian organizations” are very giving it’s true. And they use the tax system to their benefit as they should. Being charitable is good.
It's also a lot easier to give a plate of food with one hand when you're holding a Bible out in the other.

Let's not pretend that Christian aid isn't often completely self-serving.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:44 PM   #879
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Why does the government being bloated and inefficient have anything to do with what they should be providing their people, anyways?
Well, it means if they were better operated, they could do more with the money they need from our taxes. I mean, look at NASA. Love em to death. And they don’t cost us all that much. But they are definitely inefficient with the funds they receive. They’re not designed to keep costs down and do a poor job at cost control.


I’m not even advocating against big government. I would prefer my analog to the government, NASA, both receive more money and operate better with the money they receive.

Doesn’t necessarily mean the government needs more money than it gets now. Because the government is so cash-strapped routinely, they rely on contracting the private sector at really ridiculous rates, but for companies that are more efficiently ran than the government.

The irony of all of that is, of course, a poorly ran government tends to have its money ending up in the pockets of the private sector. Which is why I feel we need our public sector to be more competitive (which would mean paying them more and making them fireable).
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:58 PM   #880
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Well, it means if they were better operated, they could do more with the money they need from our taxes. I mean, look at NASA. Love em to death. And they don’t cost us all that much. But they are definitely inefficient with the funds they receive. They’re not designed to keep costs down and do a poor job at cost control.


I’m not even advocating against big government. I would prefer my analog to the government, NASA, both receive more money and operate better with the money they receive.

Doesn’t necessarily mean the government needs more money than it gets now. Because the government is so cash-strapped routinely, they rely on contracting the private sector at really ridiculous rates, but for companies that are more efficiently ran than the government.

The irony of all of that is, of course, a poorly ran government tends to have its money ending up in the pockets of the private sector. Which is why I feel we need our public sector to be more competitive (which would mean paying them more and making them fireable).
No I'm agreeing with you.

I think government is too bloated and want to see things done in a much more efficient way.

I also think government should be responsible for the welfare of it's citizens, especially those who are poor and destitute.

I don't understand why, other than just straight sports team politics, that one (jesus freak) has to agree with either one or the other.
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