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Old 07-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #201
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In the suburbs the Tim's are still totally rammed. I work by the airport in Toronto and there is a Tim Hortons near us which is so busy that it has a second building across the parking lot to handle drive through traffic. You can't ever go there without at least a dozen cars in front of you, in the mornings it's much worse than that. If I drive on surface roads from my home in the west end there, every single Tim's is the same. People living downtown don't get how popular it is within a certain segment of population.

I honestly don't like anything there, not being a snob, but the coffee is not great (dark roast is maybe drinkable), I don't eat donuts or muffins or anything with sugar, their bagels are on the level of a grocery store bagel and I'm not sure about lunches, haven't been there for that in years. I remember their chilli being really inconsistent - either thicker than molasses or runny like soup, back in the days when we had a TH in my law school building.

So like you said, it's great that a national brand that really dominates in the "heartland" so to speak isn't immune.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:46 PM   #202
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the coffee has been roughly equivalent to shitwater since mcdonald's stole their supplier a few years ago, but even two years ago there were a few things there for food that weren't bad if you needed something quick and convenient, like the bagels and soups. but a big part of the franchisee's complaints with the new owner is that they've been forced to use lower-quality suppliers and raise prices at the same time as the quality of the food has gone down. the last time i was in there was last fall when i needed to grab something fast to eat and i got a bagel - despite apparently having been toasted, it was so chewy and flavourless as to be nearly inedible. the only flavour i could taste was cream cheese and even there it was obvious that there was about two-thirds as much cream cheese on it as there was before even though i paid 35 cents more for it than the last time i'd bought one.

it'll of course never go away completely (especially where drive-thrus are a thing) but i can't say i'm upset to see them getting their comeuppance for treating their employees like shit and the public like idiots.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:22 PM   #203
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:45 PM   #204
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the last time i was in there was last fall when i needed to grab something fast to eat and i got a bagel - despite apparently having been toasted, it was so chewy and flavourless as to be nearly inedible. the only flavour i could taste was cream cheese and even there it was obvious that there was about two-thirds as much cream cheese on it as there was before even though i paid 35 cents more for it than the last time i'd bought one.
Typical.

The last time I got a bagel there I asked for it to be toasted with butter and for them to put on "half the butter you usually put on" (because they slather so much the butter soaks the bag). She looked at me and asked "so you want butter on only on half of the bagel?"
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:56 PM   #205
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So, Ed Schultz passed away yesterday, at the age of 64.

For those who don't remember, he was a radio host, and then the host of "The Ed Show" on MSNBC, where he was sort of a blue-collar working man's alternative to the more wonky likes of Maddow, Chris Hayes, Lawerence O'Donnell, etc. More outspoken than most against Scott Walker's union-busting in Wisconsin.

After MSNBC let him go a few years back, he did an about face that disappointed a lot of people when he went to work for RT, Russian state television, and all of a sudden started defending Trump, speaking against the Russia investigation, etc.

He lost a lot of respect from a lot of people with that move. Still, 64 is too young for anybody to go. R.I.P.
Wait... WHAT?!??!!!
omg! I had NO idea this happened...
i'm... floored...

damn.

maybe he'd have changed again, had he lived. Wow.
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Old 07-09-2018, 06:26 PM   #206
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Oh, so many good posts, too little time to really comment. So a few short comments

Woah, that posted piece about the 1 yr old immigrant child in court?! It's the first one I've actually heard any details, other than previously knowing this was about to (further) happen to these already traumatized kids. Like a monstrous 1-ring circus.

I had just caught the UN/WHO Breast Milk resolution vs The USA before I got to this thread. Science vs Greed/or Christian Religious Conservatives.

mamacass-
As a liberal radio talk show person quoted:
"Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society".
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:52 PM   #207
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AHey man, we finally have a president who isn’t afraid to talk like a douchebag!

Aren’t you tired of the political talk? Isn’t it refreshing to have someone with the mind of a 5 year old represent us across the world ?
What I meant was I like the whole sarcasm of this.

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Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
Side note

I am not sure i have ever seen someone lack any compassion and empathy as much as Donald.

How fucking miserable must his thoughts be to constantly take it out on others ?
He's way up on the lack of compassion scale. I dunno Paul Ryan is pretty up there but bye doesn't have the overblown narcissism that drumpf has.

As to his inner thoughts, the kind you are postulating on maybe they're semi, or uncinscious. Or on autopilot.

even so we have to do the best we can to stop his policies.

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He talks like my drunk, racist Uncle!
does your uncle only reveal his racism when he's drunk, or does just get worse?

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Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
This is a rather overly simplistic views of "Republicans'. I am a conservative, but would not say I'm a republican for various reasons, but this could easily be responded to by saying that most Democrats vote the way they do because it makes them FEEL compassionate, when they're really doing nothing compassionate. Many Democrats want to raise taxes on people with more money than them and "redistribute" wealth to the needy (themselves?) because they are either jealous, and/or either don't want to put forth the effort or investment to make more money.

It's very easy for Democrats/Liberals to spend other people's money and time and pretend they're compassionate. You know what real compassion is?? Doing something yourself, volunteering to help the people less fortunate than you, using your own money to help those organizations that you support, not pretending to be compassionate by forcing who gets what by giving more money to an inept government that's put us 20 trillion dollars in debt. Lower taxes put more money in your pocket, so use that money to support those in need! THAT'S compassion.
The "inept" govt that built up the Tennessee Valley Authority, put men in the moon, built Skylab, the Shuttles, your highway system, etc etc.

I've put money and time here and there through the decades to help people, places in need or volunteered time to get people elected that would address and hose kind of issues.

But (as some here said) "there probably would n't be enough volunteers or donations to cover all in need.
Thus a certain amount of wealth distribution. "To whom much is given, much is expected".
NO ONE totally does it on their own. There's public schools, public works, tranportation, electricity, water and sewage etc. The people you might hire use all this, too.

Conservative views often come from Calvanist, and other streams of Protestent faiths (not all). Those equate
wealth = worthiness. So if you're poor you are NOT worthy.
Are you one of those conservatives who took the New Testimate and tore out all of Jesus's references to the poor, etc?

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Redistributing wealth isn't about jealousy or laziness. It's about morality. You'd rather a thousand people die from health issues that would be preventable under universal healthcare than even one lazy person get a social safety net.
Fucking THIS!!! So goddamn true.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:22 PM   #208
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What I meant was I like the whole sarcasm of this.


He's way up on the lack of compassion scale. I dunno Paul Ryan is pretty up there but bye doesn't have the overblown narcissism that drumpf has.

As to his inner thoughts, the kind you are postulating on maybe they're semi, or uncinscious. Or on autopilot.

even so we have to do the best we can to stop his policies.


does your uncle only reveal his racism when he's drunk, or does just get worse?


The "inept" govt that built up the Tennessee Valley Authority, put men in the moon, built Skylab, the Shuttles, your highway system, etc etc.

I've put money and time here and there through the decades to help people, places in need or volunteered time to get people elected that would address and hose kind of issues.

But (as some here said) "there probably would n't be enough volunteers or donations to cover all in need.
Thus a certain amount of wealth distribution. "To whom much is given, much is expected".
NO ONE totally does it on their own. There's public schools, public works, tranportation, electricity, water and sewage etc. The people you might hire use all this, too.

Conservative views often come from Calvanist, and other streams of Protestent faiths (not all). Those equate
wealth = worthiness. So if you're poor you are NOT worthy.
Are you one of those conservatives who took the New Testimate and tore out all of Jesus's references to the poor, etc?



Fucking THIS!!! So goddamn true.
Except that it's you know, theft. Why should you or anyone else be entitled to anyone else's money? This is what you don't get about free market capitalism, there's not an finite amount of money. Wealth can be created.

So you want everyone in the US to live in mediocrity? Punish people for being successful? We are the richest nation on earth because of this "horrible scourge called capitalism. "

Again, it's easy for YOU to spend other people's money, oh I'm sorry, "redistribute other people's money" than to just encourage those who want more to work harder, get smarter and go out and get more! People do it everyday, that's America.

What you're doing is just self righteous virtue signaling.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:02 AM   #209
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Except that it's you know, theft. Why should you or anyone else be entitled to anyone else's money? This is what you don't get about free market capitalism, there's not an finite amount of money. Wealth can be created.



So you want everyone in the US to live in mediocrity? Punish people for being successful? We are the richest nation on earth because of this "horrible scourge called capitalism. "



Again, it's easy for YOU to spend other people's money, oh I'm sorry, "redistribute other people's money" than to just encourage those who want more to work harder, get smarter and go out and get more! People do it everyday, that's America.



What you're doing is just self righteous virtue signaling.




There are several people in this thread who work very hard and make very, very good salaries and feel just fine about having a substantial portion taxed so that people less fortunate than themselves can have roads, schools, and healthcare.

Also, if you live in a red state, you are living off the Blue states. And you realize that there areas where the vast, vast majority of GDP comes from all voted for Hillary, yes?
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:15 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
Except that it's you know, theft. Why should you or anyone else be entitled to anyone else's money? This is what you don't get about free market capitalism, there's not an finite amount of money. Wealth can be created.



So you want everyone in the US to live in mediocrity? Punish people for being successful? We are the richest nation on earth because of this "horrible scourge called capitalism. "



Again, it's easy for YOU to spend other people's money, oh I'm sorry, "redistribute other people's money" than to just encourage those who want more to work harder, get smarter and go out and get more! People do it everyday, that's America.



What you're doing is just self righteous virtue signaling.


I bet I work harder than you.

I bet I make more money than you.

You bet I’m willing to “redistribute” my wealth as a construct of society to pay for infrastructure, security, education, healthcare, and development.

I’m not being “punished.” There’s plenty of money to go around because I worked hard, thanks to our capitalistic system. And with that money I can make more money than someone who doesn’t make as much money. And I’ll be taxed even more. And I’m happy to contribute to society through whatever success I might encounter.

Even Donald Trump understands this. Even he understands and agrees with progressive tax brackets. C’mon now.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:19 AM   #211
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it's like the proverb of the "boeuf bourgignon"

a group of homeless people sitting round a pot of water on the fire, and they each have got hold of one little piece of food that day - one has an onion, another a carrot, another a bit of wine, and another a bit of tough meat

so they talk about it and realise if they put everything together in the pot there will be enough for a nice meal, so decide it would be for the common good to share

so one at a time they go to the pot to put their bit of food into the water, but each time, they get to the pot and have second thoughts, thinking "what if i put my food in and no-one else does?" so each one pretends to put their food in the pot but instead hides it in their pocket, and at the end, they serve up the boeuf bourgignon but they have nothing but a bowl of hot water (and their own tasteless little bit of food each)

and that's what happens when you don't share
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:19 AM   #212
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Also, can we remind ourselves that our incomes are not determined by how hard we work but on how valued our skill sets are?

Do you really think you work harder than a mother with three jobs or the guy who cleans your building?

I bet most of us work harder than Donald Trump and his vapid children.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:10 PM   #213
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Except that it's you know, theft. Why should you or anyone else be entitled to anyone else's money? This is what you don't get about free market capitalism, there's not an finite amount of money. Wealth can be created.
This is a really extremist libertarian view, even among those who don't like paying taxes. It's one thing to argue that the taxes we pay are too high or not commensurate to the services that are provided, or to argue that the government is inefficient at x/y/z which could better be delivered by the private sector, or that the bureaucracy is bloated and needs to be modernized through attrition, etc. But a totally other thing to argue that any sort of contribution to a common pot is "theft".

You appear to want to live in a place with no organized society. You want the private sector to defend you in times of war? To educate children? Keep law & order? Put our house fires?

My husband and I are very high income earners. We pay a lot of taxes. I do believe that there are services that are inefficient and that the government is not incentivized to be at its most efficient when there is very little accountability to spending other people's money. But the view you hold is totally outside of any kind of norm.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:17 PM   #214
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it's been pretty clearly proven that the nations that tax work the highest also have the highest employment rates because income taxes fund social services, which promote labour market participation, especially for women. this effect also tends to snowball as the employment rate rises.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/u...ate-.html?_r=0

i'd love to hear a thoughtful rebuttal to any of these excellent points that have been raised but surely as usual all of the intelligent replies to gzusfrk's post will be ignored and we'll get another self-righteous /r/badeconomics rant with nothing to back it up.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:15 PM   #215
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Wealth can be created.
And you think it's just so easy for people to get wealthy, huh? Nothing to do with other aspects such as who you know, how much help one gets along the way, the fact that some people get rich through very shady means, etc.

Nope. If you just work hard you'll be rich in no time. That's how it worked for my family...oh, wait, no, it didn't.

You're also presuming that everyone WANTS to be rich and is demanding that the rich give them all their money so they can go live in mansions or something, which, no. Most people just want to be able to make enough money to afford the freaking basics, like, say, having a place to live, being able to pay their bills without having to choose which ones they need to pay first, being able to go to the doctor without having to go bankrupt in the process, and stuff like that. Such greedy demands, huh? How dare we find a way to make it easier for those people to obtain that simple stuff, right?

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Again, it's easy for YOU to spend other people's money, oh I'm sorry, "redistribute other people's money" than to just encourage those who want more to work harder, get smarter and go out and get more!.
You really, REALLY need to stop with this inane notion that people who "want more" aren't working harder or aren't smart enough, okay? That is not true. You have absolutely NO idea what kind of effort the working-class/poor put in to try and make it in this country, and it's awfully damn insulting of you to make negative assumptions about their efforts.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:56 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
Except that it's you know, theft. Why should you or anyone else be entitled to anyone else's money? This is what you don't get about free market capitalism, there's not an finite amount of money. Wealth can be created.

So you want everyone in the US to live in mediocrity? Punish people for being successful? We are the richest nation on earth because of this "horrible scourge called capitalism. "

Again, it's easy for YOU to spend other people's money, oh I'm sorry, "redistribute other people's money" than to just encourage those who want more to work harder, get smarter and go out and get more! People do it everyday, that's America.

What you're doing is just self righteous virtue signaling.
What the ever living fuck are you talking about?

Money is a right to resources, nothing more. There IS a finite amount of resources.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #217
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This is a really extremist libertarian view, even among those who don't like paying taxes. It's one thing to argue that the taxes we pay are too high or not commensurate to the services that are provided, or to argue that the government is inefficient at x/y/z which could better be delivered by the private sector, or that the bureaucracy is bloated and needs to be modernized through attrition, etc. But a totally other thing to argue that any sort of contribution to a common pot is "theft".

You appear to want to live in a place with no organized society. You want the private sector to defend you in times of war? To educate children? Keep law & order? Put our house fires?

My husband and I are very high income earners. We pay a lot of taxes. I do believe that there are services that are inefficient and that the government is not incentivized to be at its most efficient when there is very little accountability to spending other people's money. But the view you hold is totally outside of any kind of norm.
THIS

His posts reek of someone who's never been capable of, or have had to look beyond their own nose.

I've always had roads to where I want to get to, so I don't have to think about where they come from.

Always had insurance, never been sick, so I don't have to educate myself on healthcare or think about those that don't have access.

I've always had clean water, because I work hard, never had to think about those that still don't have access to.

I volunteer one day a year at Habitat for Humanity, I did my part, free market takes care of everything else.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:03 PM   #218
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And trying to convince yourself that the 45% of Americans who don’t vote are suddenly going to be moved to vote by a certain candidate or set of policies is, in my view, an equally foolish idea, just as foolish as the thought that Jill Stein moved people with no intention of voting to vote and didn’t actually rob Hillary of votes. Non-voters are either too busy to vote (hard to vote on a Tuesday when you have three jobs) or simply too self-absorbed/lazy. I think you fight for the persuadable. Which may be a small number of overall votes, but it’s how elections are won — it’s hard work, too.

While I am largely sympathetic to many of your views and admire the economy with which you express them, you’ve developed a Manichean outlook on the world that I find distinctly unpersuasive.

I respect much of what you post, but we do differ in this and a few other ways.
Do you know how many votes are lost due to voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement in this country? It's certainly way more than the number of votes Jill Stein received.

I am surprised to read this, in some respects. I strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that candidates need to explain how they are going to pay for things, but I at least understand it to some extent because that's the way many people think about the economy. But I don't understand how you can look at issues like Medicare for All, student loan forgiveness, afforable secondary education, etc. and think that they won't inspire non-voters to go to the polls. These issues affect almost everyone.

The reason people don't vote is because they've either been put in situations where it's too difficult to do so, or because they don't see the point. Give them a reason. The Democrats don't do this, and it's why they lose.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:14 PM   #219
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I am surprised to read this, in some respects. I strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that candidates need to explain how they are going to pay for things, but I at least understand it to some extent because that's the way many people think about the economy. But I don't understand how you can look at issues like Medicare for All, student loan forgiveness, afforable secondary education, etc. and think that they won't inspire non-voters to go to the polls. These issues affect almost everyone.
You're basically perpetuating the stereotype of "free shit don't care how it's paid for".

Of course it matters how it's paid for; if there's a candidate selling me student loan forgiveness I need to know how it effects my bank, my savings, my ability to apply for a loan in the future. If you can't explain it, then you're a liar or it's going to effect me negatively.

Yes, these issues affect everyone, but in which way? If you can explain it, then I know you've thought it through, if not you're just another "and Mexico's going to pay for it" conman.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:15 PM   #220
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Do you know how many votes are lost due to voter suppression and voter disenfranchisement in this country? It's certainly way more than the number of votes Jill Stein received.



I am surprised to read this, in some respects. I strongly, strongly disagree with the notion that candidates need to explain how they are going to pay for things, but I at least understand it to some extent because that's the way many people think about the economy. But I don't understand how you can look at issues like Medicare for All, student loan forgiveness, afforable secondary education, etc. and think that they won't inspire non-voters to go to the polls. These issues affect almost everyone.



The reason people don't vote is because they've either been put in situations where it's too difficult to do so, or because they don't see the point. Give them a reason. The Democrats don't do this, and it's why they lose.


I agree with you on voter suppression. Jill Stein was still designed to ciphon away votes from HRC.

I see no evidence for paragraph #2. We’ve see certain candidates in hr democratic primaries since 1980 (or even earlier) campaign on exactly these things and never make it out of the primaries — the non voters supposedly swayed by such things never materialize, and if people who believe in such things can’t be moved to vote against someone who would actively destroy these things, it’s because these voters aren’t going to be swayed by anything.

I’m imagining a response, and I could be wrong, but it’s going to be a version of the “no true Scotsman” argument.

Further, giving these people who are hungry for what you assume is your message may inspire an equal and opposite groundswell of non-voters who feel as if the other side gives them no reason to vote. This cuts both ways. There may be ways to inspire more non voters to vote, but you are incorrect in the assumption that all these non voters want what you want.

As I’ve said, I’m in Trump country right now. While I think all the things you mentioned would absolutely be the best thing possible for communities like this that have been dying since 1980, I don’t see these folks being moved to vote for such things.

The reasons why are too much to get into in a post I’m firing off on my phone.
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