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Old 04-30-2018, 04:01 PM   #141
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Yeah, no kidding. I know the difference between Clinton and Sanders. The point is that that If it would have been a similar routine and the target would have been a female democrat, you guys would be decrying it as sexist blah blah blah. But, considering that it was a conservative woman, AKA the white equivalent to an Uncle Tom, it is cheered on by the majority of you. That's the point Nick is trying to make. If there was nothing wrong with the act, then why did so many pundits--liberal and conservative-- quickly condemn it?

"Absurd, easily falsifiable lies." Pretty much sums up the average job of any press secretary, liberal or conservative.




What in the routine was sexist? I saw nothing about bleeding or fat pigs or dogs or face-lifts or how she would do anything for a donation.

I get not liking the joke, but get mad about the right thing.

You’re also doing that thing where you’re presuming people’s behavior in response to an imagined event.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:41 PM   #142
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Crikey, that's the new standard. As long as Trump has done something worse, it's OK.

Welcome to America, 2018.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:43 PM   #143
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I did not like that this mean woman did the thing she was paid to do.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:46 PM   #144
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Crikey, that's the new standard. As long as Trump has done something worse, it's OK.

Welcome to America, 2018.
If that's a response to my post, I did not say that.

I'm saying it's "interesting" to see people holding a comedian to a higher standard than the president.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:51 PM   #145
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If that's a response to my post, I did not say that.

I'm saying it's "interesting" to see people holding a comedian to a higher standard than the president.
The second part was call back to what you said ("welcome to America"). I wasn't even thinking about you with the first bit.

Obviously the President should be held to the highest standard...something Trump never disappoints in failing to meet. But Trump's own bad behaviour should not be an excuse for anyone else's.

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i'd love to see an example of one of obama's press secretaries peddling something like the biggest-inauguration-crowd-ever nonsense, or claiming that "even hitler didn't gas his own people". please provide one. just one.
Well Jay Carney repeated many times President Obama's false claim (well, lets's call it what it was, a lie that he know was a lie) "if you like your health care plan, you can keep it", which was the Politifact 2013 "Lie of the Year."

Dunno. That lie might have been a little more consequential than the inauguration crowd size lie. Carney also stretched the truth a few other times I can think of, but no point in turning this thread into a food fight about that.

Not suggesting Trump isn't the lyingy lyingest President of them all. He probably is. But I also think most of the other ones were just better at it. All those lies that got the US into the Iraq war were much more convincing than any of Trump's lies.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:55 PM   #146
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https://twitter.com/lawrence/status/...493511169?s=21

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6921.JPG
Views:	19
Size:	86.1 KB
ID:	11893

This is my take on it. Everyone on the right feigning disgust, YOU invited this, YOU cheered it on when Trump was saying “look at that face, you want to vote for that face”; Trump removed the line and therefore all moral authority. This is YOUR bed.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:57 PM   #147
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There's a clear difference between making statements on policy or on events that change and/or turn out to be incorrect down the line vs. making blatantly false statements that you know are bullshit at the time you said them.

There's also the sheer volume of lies that is different than anything else we've seen.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:58 PM   #148
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https://twitter.com/lawrence/status/...493511169?s=21

Attachment 11893

This is my take on it. Everyone on the right feigning disgust, YOU invited this, YOU cheered it on when Trump was saying “look at that face, you want to vote for that face”; Trump removed the line and therefore all moral authority. This is YOUR bed.
There's a lame U2 joke in that tweet somewhere
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:08 PM   #149
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somewhere on the horizon, probably.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:14 PM   #150
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Not suggesting Trump isn't the lyingy lyingest President of them all. He probably is. But I also think most of the other ones were just better at it. All those lies that got the US into the Iraq war were much more convincing than any of Trump's lies.
Oh, sure. But it's a totally different world of lying.

I expect politicians to lie. And they often lie about things with dire consequences. Sometimes it's completely intentional (whaddup, Iraq war), maybe sometimes it isn't (I don't know for sure about the ACA stuff - "keep your doctor" and whatnot).

Now we have Trump who just can't seem to NOT lie, about stuff that's inconsequential but obviously a lie (crowd numbers), and very consequential (voter fraud numbers). And on and on and on. There are oodles of collections of all his lies so far out there.

Some of it may not be intentional lying, since he obviously doesn't know very much about how the government actually works, but I don't understand how Trump is remotely comparable to a "regular" politician we just assume is lying because hey, politics.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:16 PM   #151
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Crikey, that's the new standard. As long as Trump has done something worse, it's OK.

Welcome to America, 2018.


it kind of does negate criticism from those who defend Trump, tho.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:38 PM   #152
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it kind of does negate criticism from those who defend Trump, tho.
This much is true.

I think it's OK to call out Michelle Wolf. What I don't think you can do is call out Michelle Wolf and then try to defend Donald Trump (on grounds of civility anyway). At least you can't do it and retain your credibility.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:54 PM   #153
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Exactly. That's the point. The Trump supporters have zero room to complain about anyone being mean to them/Trump/his administration, or making jokes about them, because they cheered Trump for "telling it like it is" and "not being PC" and not worrying about pissing off "sensitive" people. If that's the world they want to live in, fine, but they need to realize that that means the nasty rhetoric is going to go both ways as a result. And if we have to suck it up with our offense at something somebody says about us, then so do they. I don't get why they don't have to give a crap about our feelings and that's okay, but we have to be gentle with theirs. I keep hearing people say that we have to reach out and try and understand where they're coming from, but nobody tells them they need to do the same for us.

That being said, personally, I'd much rather have a calmer, quieter dialogue, and always try and engage in that kind of conversation when and where possible. But all the Trump supporters I've tried talking to don't really seem all that interested in that kind of conversation. They just continue to dig in their heels and believe the lies and BS this administration puts out, and accuse anyone who tries to tell them otherwise of lying, or mock those of us who try and explain why what this administration says and does is so troubling. So when talking doesn't work, what do you do then?

I didn't see the WHCD itself-I've just read snippets from Wolf's routine. From what I've read, I did see a couple comments about Ivanka that could be seen as perhaps a little too personal, and maybe there were other moments of that sort in the routine itself that I haven't read that did cross a line, or at least walk it very finely. If that's the case, then yeah, I can sympathize with the sentiment that we don't need to go there.

But most of what I've read wasn't personal jabs so much as it was just calling out this administration for being a clusterfuck of lies, which...it is. People are frustrated and angry. They feel like they've stepped into the Twilight Zone with how much bullshit people are willing to swallow from this administration, and are beyond tired of trying to explain to Trump supporters why this administration is so horrible. So I'm not surprised that frustration would manifest in a rather acerbic routine as a result.

I'd also note that from what I've read, Wolf also had a couple zingers towards the Democrats/MSNBC/CNN, too, so it's not exactly like they escaped unscathed.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:13 PM   #154
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What in the world is possibly offensive about anything Wolf said? She said nothing offensive, she just called the PR wing of this abominable administration out for doing exactly that. In what way was it unnecessarily cruel?

The people who help to carry out atrocities all over the world don't deserve a night to kick back and relax and hear light hearted "we're all in this together" type jokes. That's what WHCD often is, and it's a fucking insult to everyone who seriously suffers because of the politics of this country.

This sums up my feelings. Every person, ESPECIALLY every media member and political professional, who made a big stink about Wolf's comments, is absolutely fucking worthless.

The worthless Washington media
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:19 PM   #155
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I think it's OK to call out Michelle Wolf.
Calling out Michelle Wolf says the following: "Most political issues don't impact me. I care about civility above all else. This is really just sport to me. The thing that bothers me most about political discourse is when people aren't polite to each other and say rude things. The fact that politics is, at its core, a battle of who gets what and who doesn't is completely lost on me and doesn't enter my head on a regular basis because I live a relatively comfortable life."

Fuck civility. We need politics to be not so civil. Civility covers up the brutality of a political system that destroys lives. Lives abroad AND lives at home.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:19 PM   #156
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Oh, sure. But it's a totally different world of lying.

I expect politicians to lie. And they often lie about things with dire consequences. Sometimes it's completely intentional (whaddup, Iraq war), maybe sometimes it isn't (I don't know for sure about the ACA stuff - "keep your doctor" and whatnot).

Now we have Trump who just can't seem to NOT lie, about stuff that's inconsequential but obviously a lie (crowd numbers), and very consequential (voter fraud numbers). And on and on and on. There are oodles of collections of all his lies so far out there.

Some of it may not be intentional lying, since he obviously doesn't know very much about how the government actually works, but I don't understand how Trump is remotely comparable to a "regular" politician we just assume is lying because hey, politics.
Like all congenital liars, Trump lies about things he doesn't need to lie about. And he probably doesn't even think he's lying half the time.

He's far from a normal politician. That said, when you strip away all the lies, the stupid Tweets, the vulgarity, the complete lack of character, etc., policy wise he's done things that more or less any other Republican President would have (for better or worse).
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:22 PM   #157
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He's far from a normal politician. That said, when you strip away all the lies, the stupid Tweets, the vulgarity, the complete lack of character, etc., policy wise he's done things that more or less any other Republican President would have (for better or worse).
Which is still extremely horrifying. The Republican Party is a brutal party that ruins many aspects of society anytime they are in power.

My hope is that the Democrats learn their lesson and not make any other elections about fucking tone the way they did in 2016.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:48 PM   #158
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What in the world is possibly offensive about anything Wolf said? She said nothing offensive, she just called the PR wing of this abominable administration out for doing exactly that. In what way was it unnecessarily cruel?



]
Her routine didn't cross "the line". People equating her comparison of Sanders to Aunt Lydia as insulting Sanders' looks are misinformed (and insulting to the actress who plays her), the comparison was about the TV character's role on the show.

Kathy Griffin crossed "the line" with the Trump beheading skit, this did not.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:57 PM   #159
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Actually I was OK with what Kathy Griffin did. And it wasn't a "skit". Anyway, she didn't deserve to lose her career over it.

And no one can convince me that if Aunt Lydia had been played by Rachel Weisz that Wolf would have made the comparison.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:57 PM   #160
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He's far from a normal politician. That said, when you strip away all the lies, the stupid Tweets, the vulgarity, the complete lack of character, etc., policy wise he's done things that more or less any other Republican President would have (for better or worse).

Which in itself has completely changed the decorum of what should be considered the highest office of our country.
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