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Old 05-14-2018, 07:34 PM   #341
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The Palestinians live in Bantustans. The only ones not willing to accept that as fact are right wing Israelis and right wing Americans along with the Evangelicals who generously want to give Israel to the Jews so to bring on the second coming where most Jews will die and a small number of lucky ones will convert. These are the honest brokers that Netanyahu works with.
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Old 05-14-2018, 08:06 PM   #342
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Those preachers at the opening were fucking nutjobs. Even Mittens (!) called them bigots.

It’s all about provocation to excite the base so they show up in November and attempt to avert disaster.

Also, protestors are now “violence provokers.”
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:39 PM   #343
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Those preachers at the opening were fucking nutjobs. Even Mittens (!) called them bigots.

It’s all about provocation to excite the base so they show up in November and attempt to avert disaster.

Also, protestors are now “violence provokers.”
Mitt's tweet brings up anitram's interesting point...

'Robert Jeffress says “you can’t be saved by being a Jew,“ and “Mormonism is a heresy from the pit of hell.” He’s said the same about Islam. Such a religious bigot should not be giving the prayer that opens the United States Embassy in Jerusalem.'

The relationship between the Christian Right and the Israeli State is super interesting, in light of the traditional Christian Doctrine of Hell. I suppose Mitt can avoid being a hypocrite here in that LDS hell doctrine is a good bit looser, depending on whom you talk to.

But it's also interesting when people who aren't conservative Christians accuse people of bigotry for making statements about non-Christians going to hell. On one hand, I really dislike the traditionalist Christian Doctrine of Hell (I say this as a progressive Christian who doesn't meaningfully believe in hell), and I do think it's a bigoted belief. On the other hand, it's probably held by like 50% of the US population, and so I struggle with just calling out high-profile examples of it as if it's just some small, vocal enemy that believes it. Hell doctrine - the view that non-Christians go to hell - is held by a very, very large swath of the American population, which most likely includes, say, Mitt Romney's vice presidential candidate (though Ryan may have been nicer to the LDS Church in particular), and the vast majority of the people who voted for Romney/Ryan.

So yeah - I think that the Doctrine of Hell is a shitty view, but it's not like we can say "omg evil megachurch pastor" and wash our hands of it, because it's all over society.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:42 PM   #344
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These pastors also believe God sends hurricanes to destroy New Orleans because of gay pride parades, and part of the reason so many may believe in this “everyone goes to hell but me” doctrine is because people like this tell them it’s true.

I feel like 50% is pretty high tho.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:54 PM   #345
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These pastors also believe God sends hurricanes to destroy New Orleans because of gay pride parades, and part of the reason so many may believe in this “everyone goes to hell but me” doctrine is because people like this tell them it’s true.

I feel like 50% is pretty high tho.
True, there's real culpability there.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to defend Jeffress at all. I think that comments about hurricanes hitting New Orleans because of gay rights are loathsome, and completely disagree with how the vast majority of the broader Christian church handles LGBTQ+ issues (i.e. by being anything less than affirming).

The only point I'm trying to make is that views that we deem as backwards and deeply, deeply harmful are held by an astonishingly large part of society. These sort of pastors help to spread it, for sure - but it's also back by hundreds of years of damaging theology and tradition that persists, and to an extent people like Jeffress are reflecting that. Criticize Jeffress away, Romney - I agree fully. But it's worth a recognition that we can't just blame "the evildoers" here; there's a really painful recognition that so much of American society believes this stuff, and I don't think it's just a matter of criticizing the spiritual leaders at the top. Romney could rightfully critique most of his voting base for believing the same thing. And for society to move away from this attitude would require changing a lot of minds.

50% may be high, I don't know - I live in Texas, and it's certainly high here. Certainly non-Christians aren't going to buy into traditionalist hell stuff; nor will many of the the large number of apathetic Christmas/Easter Christians in this country. But among practicing Christians, it's only fringe-ish heretics like myself (basically some Episcopalians and Methodists) who don't buy into traditional hell doctrine. In other words... the doctrine is pretty widespread.
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:40 AM   #346
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But it's also interesting when people who aren't conservative Christians accuse people of bigotry for making statements about non-Christians going to hell. On one hand, I really dislike the traditionalist Christian Doctrine of Hell (I say this as a progressive Christian who doesn't meaningfully believe in hell), and I do think it's a bigoted belief. On the other hand, it's probably held by like 50% of the US population, and so I struggle with just calling out high-profile examples of it as if it's just some small, vocal enemy that believes it. Hell doctrine - the view that non-Christians go to hell - is held by a very, very large swath of the American population, which most likely includes, say, Mitt Romney's vice presidential candidate (though Ryan may have been nicer to the LDS Church in particular), and the vast majority of the people who voted for Romney/Ryan.

So yeah - I think that the Doctrine of Hell is a shitty view, but it's not like we can say "omg evil megachurch pastor" and wash our hands of it, because it's all over society.
have you seen the film "Come Sunday"? based on a true story - caught it the other day on netflix and highly recommend!
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:44 AM   #347
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The Palestinians live in Bantustans. The only ones not willing to accept that as fact are right wing Israelis and right wing Americans along with the Evangelicals who generously want to give Israel to the Jews so to bring on the second coming where most Jews will die and a small number of lucky ones will convert. These are the honest brokers that Netanyahu works with.
100% hit the nail on the head

out of all the evil in the world, these destructive evangelical crazies are the worst - and the biggest threat to peace
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:19 PM   #348
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North Korea is playing games again.

I'm going to laugh my ass off if they jerk the rug out from under Trump's only foreign policy achievement.
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:43 PM   #349
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North Korea is playing games again.

I'm going to laugh my ass off if they jerk the rug out from under Trump's only foreign policy achievement.
This reminds me of the guy who said they would be enjoying a market crash more if they didn't have so much of their retirement invested and if it meant the "herd would turn on the orange one." Oh wait, that was you.

I get it, you hate President Trump, but when people make comments like this it really says more about the person saying them than anything else. I didn't vote for the guy either, but I will certainly not laugh my ass off if things don't go well with Korea, the stock market...etc.
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:54 PM   #350
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Meh, if things don't go well with North Korea, then they never really were and they've just been stringing this administration along the whole time.

I'm going to laugh at all the people calling for Trump to get the Nobel Peace Prize when he hasn't even closed the deal. I wonder what the Nobel committee thinks of him being responsible for the murder of 60 Palestinians.
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:55 PM   #351
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This reminds me of the guy who said they would be enjoying a market crash more if they didn't have so much of their retirement invested and if it meant the "herd would turn on the orange one." Oh wait, that was you.

I get it, you hate President Trump, but when people make comments like this it really says more about the person saying them than anything else. I didn't vote for the guy either, but I will certainly not laugh my ass off if things don't go well with Korea, the stock market...etc.
I'll have a hearty HAR HAR when North Korea tells Trump to fuck off.

What that says of me as a person is that I'm actually smart enough to know that a) Kim is full of shit, and they had zero ability to hit the US mainland, and b) Trump's an asshole so fuck him, and fuck anyone who still supports him.

North Korea is a distraction. His real foreign policy play is to turn the middle east into a blazing inferno. Again. This is one area where he's actually been successful. The only other area where he's ever been successful is at convincing dopes that he's a good businessman.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:37 PM   #352
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Yeah, Trump’s preemptive spiking of the football on this deserves all the mocking and derision it will get if this falls through.

Obviously, a good outcome is preferred, but when you’ve reduced life and death politics to a team sport, this kind of “in your face, Flanders” is inevitable.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:46 PM   #353
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Trump is getting a hard lesson in deal making.

What exactly is the outcome of this summit ?

NK just came out and said there’s no point in talk if USA insists they give up their nukes.

after all the talk of how NK can never become a nuclear power, what leverage does Trump have now?

I feel like Trump would send our troops home if NK offered to finance one of his hotels
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:32 AM   #354
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I wonder if he'll install his Nobel Peace Prize in the lobby of Trump Tower.

HAR HAR
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:49 AM   #355
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I feel like Trump would send our troops home if NK offered to finance one of his hotels


A game of who stiffs who.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:40 AM   #356
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[Colbert Trump voice] tell ya what Kim - you can keep the nukes if you fund Trump Tower Pyongyang, okay? And toss in some or those rugs you guys make for Ivanka.[/Colbert Trump voice]
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:19 PM   #357
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Senate investigation concludes Russia interfered in election to help Donald Trump - breaking with conclusion of House probe

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8354786.html
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:10 PM   #358
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Rex Tillerson's address at VMI:

Quote:
If our leaders seek to conceal the truth, or we as people become accepting of alternative realities that are no longer grounded in facts, then we as American citizens are on a pathway to relinquishing our freedom.

...

A responsibility of every American citizen to each other is to preserve and protect our freedom by recognizing what truth is and is not, what a fact is and is not and begin by holding ourselves accountable to truthfulness and demand our pursuit of America's future be fact-based -- not based on wishful thinking, not hoped-for outcomes made in shallow promises, but with a clear-eyed view of the facts as they are, and guided by the truth that will set us free to seek solutions to our most daunting challenges.
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:32 PM   #359
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Some truth from ex-Sec Tillison
('bout time [?]).

Ok, Senate !
(we'll see how much that helps, but hey some Repubs are in agreement w Senate Dems.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:35 PM   #360
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Amazing how honest these guys are when there's nothing on the line.

Real brave there, Rex.
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