US Politics VI

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The Bastille Day military parade in France that apparently inspired Trump is not exactly free of connotations of terror, but its over-all symbolism is more appealing. It celebrates the power of the people who overthrew the monarchy and won freedom (though they certainly didn’t wear uniforms or march in lockstep).

yikes, now there's some prime /r/badhistory material. :doh:
 
“There’s no way any of us can excuse what the president did yesterday. When you have the world watching … a week, two weeks of anticipation of what the United States is gonna do. For him to walk out —I’m not trying to be trivial here— in a light suit, light tan suit, saying that first he wants to talk about what most Americans care about the revision of second quarter numbers on the economy. This is a week after Jim Foley was beheaded and he’s trying to act like real Americans care about the economy, not about ISIS and not about terrorism. And then he goes on to say he has no strategy.”
 
The same thing that happened to Democrats who didn't care about the deficit and debt when Obama was in office, but do now.

The same thing that happened to the right who used to think the Russia was America's greatest geo political foe, for decades, and now seem to be OK with them.

The same thing that happened to the left who criticised the right for red baiting during the cold war, and mocked Mitt Romney when he said Russia was American's greatest geo political foe and are now engaging in full fledged Russia hysteria.

The same thing that happened to the right who used to think that character and integrity mattered in a President, but now couldn't care less.

Hypocrisy happened. The only thing surprising is people's continuous shock about it and conviction that it's mostly the other side that engages in it.

The criticism of red-baiting on the left is still going strong though, it's just there's a greater deal of liberal-leaning folks doing it in recent years - but don't forget that you do still get it amongst prominent Republicans (Cruz, Rubio etc. predictably).
 
The criticism of red-baiting on the left is still going strong though, it's just there's a greater deal of liberal-leaning folks doing it in recent years - but don't forget that you do still get it amongst prominent Republicans (Cruz, Rubio etc. predictably).
Can we cut the bullshit?

Criticism of Trump and the Trump's campaign is. Ot a criticism of Russian people. It's a criticism or fucking Trump.
 
It's not bullshit to point out that red-baiting is still prevalent. It's particularly evident when you're an actual leftist.
 
I think it's funny that The Resistance puts the hammer & sickle on their protests signs when they tie Trump to Russia. As if that's Russia. It would be like trying to make a point about Germany and using the swastika.

That's when they're actually not using the NAZI flag instead of the Soviet flag. So Trump's both a NAZI and Communist...don't these guys read history before they make their signs? Or at least, I don't know, crack open a dictionary? Wikipedia? I guess we're just suppose to give them the benefit of doubt that they don't mean anything literally....they're just sayin'. Making matters even more confusing is that when the Russians did use the hammer & sickle, they were communists, and the far left liked them better back then. So now the thing to do is tie Trump, someone they hate, to the hammer & sickle because Russia, even though that's not the Russian flag anymore, but was when the left liked Russia. Or something. Aw, what the hell, let's just make a funny sign.

It's also not without a little irony that this fashion of calling political enemies the worst thing we could think of...fascist...was begun by Stalin. Who pretty much called anyone who he wanted to rid himself of a fascist. Because that wasn't such a good thing to be called in post-war Russia. Russians didn't like them much, with with Stalingrad and all.

Anywho, if Trump engaged in a conspiracy with the Russians, or otherwise "colluded" with them to "hack the election", Mueller will get to the bottom of it, everyone can be sure of that. Meanwhile, the hysteria about the whole thing is a little embarrassing, and frankly playing right into Putin's hands.

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It's not bullshit to point out that red-baiting is still prevalent. It's particularly evident when you're an actual leftist.

I can't remember, but did you say you were from Belarus? I always wondered how the former USSR republics saw Russia/Russians (aside from Ukrainians who seem largely negative in my experience). I ask mostly out of my own sense of curiosity because I was born in Eastern Europe and in the country of my birth Russia is widely DESPISED, the politicians, the people, the history of hegemony and meddling and repression. I get that sense from some of my friends from other countries in the area, but it varies. For example, parents of my Polish friends seem to uniformly hate the Russians, but the couple of Bulgarians we are friends with are more ambivalent/indifferent.
 
I have the utmost trust in Mueller and his investigation.

I just wish it didn't feel like Mueller's investigation is the only thing that could save us from this shitty administration, and that there wasn't a chance that this administration could find some way to halt or get around the investigation and not be held accountable for anything they do yet AGAIN at that. Like I said in the "Tipping Point" thread, I wish we could just get rid of everyone in the White House, like, yesterday, be it because of the Russia investigation or whatever other crap they've pulled. I'd just love some reassurance that this insanity will end as soon as possible.
 
I can't remember, but did you say you were from Belarus? I always wondered how the former USSR republics saw Russia/Russians (aside from Ukrainians who seem largely negative in my experience). I ask mostly out of my own sense of curiosity because I was born in Eastern Europe and in the country of my birth Russia is widely DESPISED, the politicians, the people, the history of hegemony and meddling and repression. I get that sense from some of my friends from other countries in the area, but it varies. For example, parents of my Polish friends seem to uniformly hate the Russians, but the couple of Bulgarians we are friends with are more ambivalent/indifferent.

I am, it's typically positive but as in many places, opinions are not uniform. I view Russians as people positively, as I would with people of any other nation and ethnicity - while at the same time opposing Russia as a nation with considerable imperial power in the region (and yes, that extends through the USSR and Imperial Russia). Russian is after all my first language.

I do think that a lot of inter-ethnic (international?) animosity between that you've touched upon in your post also have had a lot to do with nationalism, there have been hostility between Poles and Russians for centuries in the times of competing empires - and modern nationalism only seems to feed this. Personally, I have not encountered much hostility from other Eastern Europeans in regards to my spoken language and nationality - but living in Australia might have a lot to do with that! In my opinion, nationalism and structural religious power is the great scourge of modern Eastern Europe.
 
I am, it's typically positive but as in many places, opinions are not uniform. I view Russians as people positively, as I would with people of any other nation and ethnicity - while at the same time opposing Russia as a nation with considerable imperial power in the region (and yes, that extends through the USSR and Imperial Russia). Russian is after all my first language.

I do think that a lot of inter-ethnic (international?) animosity between that you've touched upon in your post also have had a lot to do with nationalism, there have been hostility between Poles and Russians for centuries in the times of competing empires - and modern nationalism only seems to feed this. Personally, I have not encountered much hostility from other Eastern Europeans in regards to my spoken language and nationality - but living in Australia might have a lot to do with that! In my opinion, nationalism and structural religious power is the great scourge of modern Eastern Europe.

Cool. I didn't know you were from Belarus.

I lived and worked in Russia for several years, and did quite a bit of travel around the region. It was mostly to Eastern Europe, the Caucuses and Baltics, but I made it to Minsk once for a conference.

While you would obviously know better, my experience and impressions are much like yours. There's quite a bit of dislike for Russia, and Russians, in many of the FSU and satellite countries, particularly places like Georgia (though interestingly, I've found Belarusians to be among the more favourable to Russians). Of course, much of the antagonism is well deserved; Russia has been a bad actor on the world stage on and off for almost a century.

And in my experience the antagonism is not just towards the Russian government, it's towards Russians in general. But it's more group focused antagonism, as most of my friends and colleagues from those countries are friendly with individual Russians on a personal level. And here in the UK, the expat slavic communities tend to mix quite a bit. Especially the women, who I think are generally more sensible about rejecting nationality based bigotry.

I still go back to Russia a couple times a year, and sadly the anti-American/nationalist sentiment there is almost at an all time high. It's not quite where it was a few years ago at its peak (many Russians hated Obama, but I have admit that a lot of that was racism), but still pretty bad. Russians are very aware that their country is a daily topic in the US. A lot of this comes from the top, Putin has presented the west as the enemy, much like the despots in the Middle East have done for decades. Whatever we think of Russians, they're fairly convinced we hate them.

But on a personal level, from my standpoint Russians are as warm and friendly as ever, and I have a lot of respect for them and their culture.
 
Another source of anti-Russia sentiment in the West has been their recently highly visible homophobia — remember there were calls to boycott Sochi over the June 2013 laws prohibiting the distribution of any LGBT material, there’s the stories of the torture and murder of gay men in Chechnya, and Pride parades are routinely shut down due to public safety concerns.

I’m told Moscow and St Petersburg have thriving gay scenes (this from a gay friend who lived in Moscow for a decade) so I’m sure there are nuances. But, as a married gay couple, we still wouldn’t choose to travel there.

All this on top of Crimea, widespread state organized doping, and the thuddingly obvious attack on the 2016 US elections, and we have much, much more than dated notions of Red Scares. These are specific actions of a specific government that many in the west resent.

Russian culture — literature, film, ballet — is a wonder of the world.
 
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All this on top of Crimea, widespread state organized doping, and the thuddingly obvious attack on the 2016 US elections, and we have much, much more than dated notions of Red Scares. These are specific actions of a specific government that many in the west resent.

I'm not sure what "dated notions" means?

The Russians were much more openly antagonistic, towards America and the West during the cold war, in ways too numerous to list...including an aggressive espionage program, nuclear arms race, and decades of invasion and brutal oppression of their neighbours. The Soviets sought to counter and subvert American power every chance they got, including financing and supporting subversive organisations in the US. What they are doing today is nothing new, and indeed much smaller in scale than what they've done in the past. Only the technology has changed.

Yet for decades the left was in sympathy with Moscow, starting with the October revolution, and an aggressive stance towards the Soviets were met with accusations of red baiting. That continued for decades, until it finally couldn't be denied what the Soviets were all about. But even going into the 70's, the lefts stand against Soviet style communism was weak. I mean, all that, and it's homophobia and the 2016 election that finally got the left mad at the Russians? Really? Reagan was widely described a nut for his anti-Soviet stance, but he sounds positively reasonable compared to all the power and influence being ascribed to the Russians by the left today.

So while homophobia among Russians is real, and unfortunate, as is their continued and decades long programs of meddling in our elections, it's a little late in the game for the left to suddenly be shocked about the Russian threat. Just as its a little hypocritical for the right to be dismissing it.
 
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The “Red Dawn” reference is dated.

Stalinist apologia was much more prevalent in the European Left than the American Left — was pretty fringe here, perhaps because it’s tough to find a True Leftist?

Also, the Russia of today is much different than the Soviet Union of 1976, as is the American political spectrum. So, again, this “both sides” equivocation doesn’t hold much water as criticism.
 
But on a personal level, from my standpoint Russians are as warm and friendly as ever, and I have a lot of respect for them and their culture.

My experience is much the same as yours in terms of how Russians are perceived, at least in the immediate Eastern European neighbouring countries. And frankly for good reason - Russia's hegemony has wrought a lot of evil not just in its backyard but even farther flung Slavic countries like the southern Balkans, where Russian influence has had terrible effects. Which is to say nothing of western meddling when it was expedient.

But I wouldn't describe Russians as "warm" nor really any Slavs (and I am partly one, on my father's side). :lol: As people, we are sort of hardened, pragmatic and warm is just about the last adjective I'd use hahaha. Back in the day when I still was going to pursue a PhD in immunology, our principal investigator/lab head hired a Russian PhD fellow (Russian Jew who essentially fled to Israel but didn't feel like he could adapt to the culture) to manage the graduate students. I personally loved him as he was highly intelligent and driven and no-nonsense. You'd get no small talk from him, no chit chat and even after spending months or years with him on a daily basis you always got the sense he had no idea who you were as a person or what you did outside of lab hours nor did he care. BUT he went over like a lead balloon with all the American and Canadian students. They nearly uniformly either hated him or lived in terror of him because there was always this awkward communication gap. They assumed that he was short with them because he was angry, or that he barked out instructions at them because he was rude. I remember thinking, this guy needs some North American sensitivity training but he never bothered me as he was sort of like my Dad or multitude of uncles and I understood his style on that basis. Anyway, when I read your comment about them being warm, I actually LOL'd as he was the first person I thought of!
 
But I wouldn't describe Russians as "warm" nor really any Slavs (and I am partly one, on my father's side). :lol: As people, we are sort of hardened, pragmatic and warm is just about the last adjective I'd use hahaha.

I actually won't argue with any of that, (surprise), and you observations are familiar to me. And you're quite right, warm probably wasn't the best word. But gregarious and friendly, when you get to know them, I think certainly is apt. And while I don't necessarily disagree with your "hardened/pragmatic" description, I think this might be a little bit of a stereotype.

But then again, it's all stereotype, isn't it? Some Russians are warm, of course. And compassionate and forgiving and generous and caring. And some are brutal and boorish and violent. Like all of us.

The have given us some of the world's best art, literature especially. One thing that always struck me is how well educated so many Russians are. I don't mean simply that they attended Uni, but how much cultural knowledge and awareness they take away and retain from their education. No matter what their profession, so many of them will talk about art and music and literature in such and effortless, casual way that still surprises me after all this time.

Glad that you're doing well and are still finding time to post! ;)
 
It's not bullshit to point out that red-baiting is still prevalent. It's particularly evident when you're an actual leftist.

I see you never owned to to my question about he Soviet Union's own mistakes like Stalin's rule, heavy hypocrisy in some rather high living in the upper circles of the Politburo etc while many Russians lived in poor conditions (oh the "Brotherhood" of Communism)
while I have owned to many mistakes the USA has, and is still make.... :|



Well we know that Cali police have been some of worst racist in a structurally rascist institution (with occasional to some
exceptions) .
 
I see you never owned to to my question about he Soviet Union's own mistakes like Stalin's rule, heavy hypocrisy in some rather high living in the upper circles of the Politburo etc while many Russians lived in poor conditions (oh the "Brotherhood" of Communism)
while I have owned to many mistakes the USA has, and is still make.... :|

What are you trying to say here? I don't understand your post and I don't remember seeing this 'question' of yours. And own up to what? I've never praised/supported Stalin here, nor have I pretended that the Soviet Union was an example of some ideal society.

You seem to have a bone to pick and I'm not entirely sure why.
 
What are you trying to say here? I don't understand your post and I don't remember seeing this 'question' of yours. And own up to what? I've never praised/supported Stalin here, nor have I pretended that the Soviet Union was an example of some ideal society.

You seem to have a bone to pick and I'm not entirely sure why.

Well you said people shouldn’t engage in red baiting, so of course you support Stalin and agree with everything the Soviet Union ever did.
 
The idea that being upset about Trump's kowtowing to the Russian government is some sort of "red baiting" or shot at the Russian people is preposterous.

Are there people who do that? Sure. They're called idiots.

My anger is directed solely at the current administration and the preceding campaign. I don't even blame Putin for trying to interfere with our election - I wouldn't expect him not to, and of course we try to do the same thing.

My anger is towards the dopes who accepted the help, and a clear as day history of association with criminals that said dopes also have, and how our current Congressional leadership are more concerned with passing ridiculous tax cuts, taking people's healthcare away and fucking football players who kneel than actually doing anything about it.
 
The idea that being upset about Trump's kowtowing to the Russian government is some sort of "red baiting" or shot at the Russian people is preposterous.

Are there people who do that? Sure. They're called idiots.

My anger is directed solely at the current administration and the preceding campaign. I don't even blame Putin for trying to interfere with our election - I wouldn't expect him not to, and of course we try to do the same thing.

My anger is towards the dopes who accepted the help, and a clear as day history of association with criminals that said dopes also have, and how our current Congressional leadership are more concerned with passing ridiculous tax cuts, taking people's healthcare away and fucking football players who kneel than actually doing anything about it.

:up:
 
I wonder, after defending him all this time, what Republicans will say if Mueller does find evidence that Trump illegally conspired with the Russians to steal the election? Will they apologise to the country for defending someone who helped steal an election and for playing into Putin's hands?

And I wonder, after engaging months of Russia hysteria and endless accusations of collusion, what will "The Resistance" say if Mueller finds no evidence of such collusion? Will they apologise to the country for questioning the legitimacy of the election and for playing into Putin's hands?
 
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I wonder, after defending him all this time, what Republicans will say if Mueller does find evidence that Trump illegal conspired with the Russians to steal the election? Will they apologise to the country for defending someone who helped steal an election and for playing into Putin's hands?

And I wonder, after engaging months of Russia hysteria and endless accusations of collusion, what will "The Resistance" say if Mueller finds no evidence of such collusion? Will they apologise to the country for questioning the legitimacy of the election and for playing into Putin's hands?



Answer #1: no, they will say a President Putin is better than a President Hillary.

Answer #2: no, there’s nothing to apologize for — an investigation is entirely justified based upon intelligence from 2016, and if there is “no collusion” then the investigation did its job. It doesn’t change the fact that the Russians clearly interfered with the goal of seeing chaos and electing Trump.

Again, this isn’t a “both sides do it” situation. And why are you equivocating between an elected political party (the GOP) and a loosely affiliated group of protestors (“the Reisitance”). They aren’t the same thing.
 
Answer #1: no, they will say a President Putin is better than a President Hillary.

Answer #2: no, there’s nothing to apologize for — an investigation is entirely justified based upon intelligence from 2016, and if there is “no collusion” then the investigation did its job. It doesn’t change the fact that the Russians clearly interfered with the goal of seeing chaos and electing Trump.

Again, this isn’t a “both sides do it” situation. And why are you equivocating between an elected political party (the GOP) and a loosely affiliated group of protestors (“the Reisitance”). They aren’t the same thing.

I find it amazing that for almost all of the issues, be it Election involvement with Russia, Uranium One, the FBI, etc. that if someone is wrong, in most cases the left will say

"No the right won't admit they were wrong"
and
"The Left has nothing to apologize for".

Like when Obama clearly said "I will have more flexibility" after the election". Nothingburger, nothing to see here.

Why are so many of these things "not a both sides issue"? Seems like a cop out.
 
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