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Old 03-27-2018, 08:50 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by dabiggestu2fan View Post
I’ve got nothing useful or valuable to add to this discussion except that I hope trump doesn’t start wwiii before July 1 when I get keys to my very first home that I’ve purchased! Lol. If I can enjoy it for at least a few months before shit hits the fan that would be all I ask haha
Congrats on the new home first time buyer!

And look at it this way...if Trump starts WWIII, think of the money you'll save on mortgage payments!
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:54 AM   #722
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I don't judge her for being a porn star, don't see the relevance at all of mentioning that as far as her motives.

Honestly I judge her for having sex with Trump. Even though it was once. Not really of course, we all make mistakes. But I do seriously think she lowered her standards with that one. I think many women have had transactional relationships with him, including possibly his wives. Not discounting that there was possibly/probably love involved in the beginning. But I bet you have to make plenty of deals and sell off parts of yourself to stay with him.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:11 AM   #723
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I do find it to be extremely creepy that he tells these women he's involved with sexually that they remind him of Ivanka. Add that to the sexual/looks comments he has made about her. Interesting to analyze. And cringeworthy.
YES. Stomach churning stuff, right there.

I too don't give a crap about Trump's affairs or consensual encounters with prostitutes. But since he has been accused of being a sexual predator, I do wonder what would happen if people pressed further on that issue. Again, I sadly don't think women talking about that would sway Trump supporters any, but I would be curious to see how that would play out if his accusers officially tried to press legal charges or something.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:29 AM   #724
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well if a lie about it can get him impeached like Clinton, that would be cool!

can anyone explain why Stormy Daniels is being treated like a hero, whereas Monica Lewinsky was vilified? all this hurts my brain
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:35 AM   #725
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I usually don't agree with what you write in terms of politics, but I appreciate your posts. I think most people here would describe themselves as center left, and it's nice to have another perspective, and as far as I know you're always civil.


I’ll second this.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:46 AM   #726
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That's a valid question, mama cass. I honestly don't know, other than it's likely party loyalty/hatred playing out. If you hate Trump, of course you're going to support Stormy, if you like him, you're going to think she's lying. Same thing applies to everything with Clinton and Monica.

And I think some of it is the fact that the world was a different place in the '90s than it is now, and attitudes on these situations will continue to evolve and change with time. Not that that excuses or justifies the attacks and insults made towards Monica, of course, just that that sadly likely explains some of the difference in reactions as well. I think Monica would have an easier time getting sympathy and support today, though, thankfully.

I never care about a politician's affairs, regardless of their party. That's for them, the person they cheated with, and their families to sort out, it has no impact on my life one way or another (though I obviously think a president should spend more time focusing on handling serious matters than trying to hook up with people). The only time it ever bugs me is if said politician is having affairs while also going around harping on about how we need to "protect the sanctity of marriage" by not letting gay people get married and other bullshit of that sort. But it's not the affair itself that's the problem there, it's, obviously, the hypocrisy.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:49 AM   #727
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I’ll second this.
Thirded .
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:54 AM   #728
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can anyone explain why Stormy Daniels is being treated like a hero, whereas Monica Lewinsky was vilified? all this hurts my brain
I think you know the answer to that. It's all about politics, not principle. Evangelicals are taking a lot of heat for overlooking Trump's personal failings because they support his political agenda...but feminists (and Democrats in general) made pretty much the same bargain with Bill Clinton. And as long as HRC had political prospects, and Bill was useful, people were willing to overlook Clinton's sleaziness (he was a featured speaker at every Democratic convention since he left office)....including accusations of sexual harassment and rape.

Trump's supporters are essentially making the same deal. The only thing I'll say about the evangelicals is this...if you know Trump is really a sleaze and opportunist and is pretty much faking his kinship with you in order to exploit you and get your support, and you're still cynically supporting him because he advances your issues...I can sort of understand that. After Trump is gone, as with President Clinton, it's going to be the bills he signs into law and the judges he picks that remain. Who cares what Clinton did in his personal life....we have RBG and Stephen Breyer, two people who always going to preserve a woman's right to choose, on the Supreme Court. That's politics. That's thinking strategically.

But if you're an evangelical who really believes what he's selling you about himself, you need to take a look in the mirror.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:55 AM   #729
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That's a valid question, mama cass. I honestly don't know, other than it's likely party loyalty/hatred playing out. If you hate Trump, of course you're going to support Stormy, if you like him, you're going to think she's lying. Same thing applies to everything with Clinton and Monica.
Sad but true. It's tribalism, pure and simple.
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:27 AM   #730
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yeah i guess it is political tribalism, ugh it's all so hypocritical...
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:35 AM   #731
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That's a valid question, mama cass. I honestly don't know, other than it's likely party loyalty/hatred playing out. If you hate Trump, of course you're going to support Stormy, if you like him, you're going to think she's lying. Same thing applies to everything with Clinton and Monica.

And I think some of it is the fact that the world was a different place in the '90s than it is now, and attitudes on these situations will continue to evolve and change with time. Not that that excuses or justifies the attacks and insults made towards Monica, of course, just that that sadly likely explains some of the difference in reactions as well. I think Monica would have an easier time getting sympathy and support today, though, thankfully.

I never care about a politician's affairs, regardless of their party. That's for them, the person they cheated with, and their families to sort out, it has no impact on my life one way or another (though I obviously think a president should spend more time focusing on handling serious matters than trying to hook up with people). The only time it ever bugs me is if said politician is having affairs while also going around harping on about how we need to "protect the sanctity of marriage" by not letting gay people get married and other bullshit of that sort. But it's not the affair itself that's the problem there, it's, obviously, the hypocrisy.
There's a few things wrong here though...

From the affair stand point, I don't give a crap. The continued support from the "moral" majority just shows their hypocrisy, but supporting this man to begin with was as hypocritical as it gets for anyone who claims to hold the moral high ground.

You're against gay marriage because it would ruin the sanctity of marriage, but you voted for a serial adulterer who's been married multiple times? Yea, you can fuck off (not you moonlit, the people who that describes)

That aside... I personally don't give a turkey about Trump or Stormy schtooping each other, much like I didn't care about whatever Bill and Monica did. Where the problem starts is when there are potentially illegal activities done to hide the affair.

Bill Clinton lied under oath. That's why he was impeached. I'm generally not a Bill Clinton fan, and I think he gets a little more credit and not enough blame for some of the things that went wrong in the 2000s. The housing crisis? Yea... Bush gets the blame, but Bill set that bubble in motion; and almost nobody mentions that when discussing it.

But back to the matter at hand... the lewd details of the Lewinsky affair became the headlines, but he actually did commit a crime. One can debate how serious we should have taken it, but he did lie under oath. (This is apparently now less of an issue for our current Republican leadership. I'm sure that's merely coincidental).

With Trump and Daniels, once you stop being distracted by the bells and sparkly lights, the questions that remain are a) were campaign funds used to pay her off, and b) was she physically threatened.

What those two boneheads did consensually does not concern me, nor should it anyone else who's able to see through the bullshit.
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:43 AM   #732
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Bill Clinton lied under oath. That's why he was impeached. I'm generally not a Bill Clinton fan, and I think he gets a little more credit and not enough blame for some of the things that went wrong in the 2000s. The housing crisis? Yea... Bush gets the blame, but Bill set that bubble in motion; and almost nobody mentions that when discussing it.
Maybe not on topic, but the housing bubble predates Clinton significantly. The rampant deregulation and new investment packages introduced in the 80s are the source. If you want to blame someone in the Clinton years, it's Alan Greenspan.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:29 AM   #733
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I didn't care about Clinton's affairs, and I really don't care about Trumps.
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That's a valid question, mama cass. I honestly don't know, other than it's likely party loyalty/hatred playing out. If you hate Trump, of course you're going to support Stormy, if you like him, you're going to think she's lying. Same thing applies to everything with Clinton and Monica.

I never care about a politician's affairs, regardless of their party. That's for them, the person they cheated with, and their families to sort out, it has no impact on my life one way or another (though I obviously think a president should spend more time focusing on handling serious matters than trying to hook up with people).
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I think you know the answer to that. It's all about politics, not principle. Evangelicals are taking a lot of heat for overlooking Trump's personal failings because they support his political agenda...but feminists (and Democrats in general) made pretty much the same bargain with Bill Clinton. And as long as HRC had political prospects, and Bill was useful, people were willing to overlook Clinton's sleaziness (he was a featured speaker at every Democratic convention since he left office)....including accusations of sexual harassment and rape.

Who cares what Clinton did in his personal life....
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There's a few things wrong here though...

From the affair stand point, I don't give a crap. The continued support from the "moral" majority just shows their hypocrisy, but supporting this man to begin with was as hypocritical as it gets for anyone who claims to hold the moral high ground.

That aside... I personally don't give a turkey about Trump or Stormy schtooping each other, much like I didn't care about whatever Bill and Monica did. Where the problem starts is when there are potentially illegal activities done to hide the affair.

Bill Clinton lied under oath. That's why he was impeached. I'm generally not a Bill Clinton fan, and I think he gets a little more credit and not enough blame for some of the things that went wrong in the 2000s. The housing crisis? Yea... Bush gets the blame, but Bill set that bubble in motion; and almost nobody mentions that when discussing it.

But back to the matter at hand... the lewd details of the Lewinsky affair became the headlines, but he actually did commit a crime. One can debate how serious we should have taken it, but he did lie under oath. (This is apparently now less of an issue for our current Republican leadership. I'm sure that's merely coincidental).

With Trump and Daniels, once you stop being distracted by the bells and sparkly lights, the questions that remain are a) were campaign funds used to pay her off, and b) was she physically threatened.

What those two boneheads did consensually does not concern me, nor should it anyone else who's able to see through the bullshit.
woah woah woah - first of all, let's please not make what bill clinton did and this stormy daniels thing out to be the same thing. they are definitely not. the lying is one thing but bill clinton used the power of his office to sleep with an employee. that is predatory and it's exactly what harvey weinstein's life right now is (rightfully IMO) in ruins for doing. trump sleeping with stormy daniels may have been a tawdry and gross affair but by all accounts it was not predatory, exploitative, or forced in any way, and moreover trump certainly hasn't lied under oath to deny it.

none of this is even considering any of the unproven allegations throughout clinton's career of more shenanigans like this.

donald trump is certainly a sexual predator in other cases as he has admitted himself, but let's please not make the mistake of equating the clinton-lewinsky affair with the trump-daniels story.

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I do find it to be extremely creepy that he tells these women he's involved with sexually that they remind him of Ivanka. Add that to the sexual/looks comments he has made about her. Interesting to analyze. And cringeworthy.
yea no kidding, that was by far the most disturbing part of the interview to me and it was just glossed over. thinking about his daughter as he's about to hook up with a woman? that's really gross even in the best case, most well-intentioned scenario but it always makes me wonder what's buried in his and ivanka's past when i hear about something like this (since he's obviously been sexually attracted to her at least since she was a young teenager - blech i feel like i need a shower after typing that ), or what she thinks when she reads something like that. ugh.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:33 AM   #734
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I don't judge her for being a porn star, don't see the relevance at all of mentioning that as far as her motives.

I was going to say it’s interesting that many people who insist that Trump’s moral choices don’t matter then make sure they label her as a porn star as that’s somehow a relevant fact. Who cares what she does for work?
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:40 AM   #735
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Oh give me a break.

"Porn star" is mentioned in every single article about this mess. When the story first "broke" here, the comments mentioned she's a porn star. If she were an accountant, no one would be mentioning that every time her name was brought up. The story is "Donald Trump slept with a porn star just after his wife gave birth." The media loves this story because it's salacious, and her being a port star is part of that.

So spare me. It's a big part of why so many people are so obsessed with this story. As for her credibility, I already said I believed her. Look for offense elsewhere.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:58 AM   #736
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Who said MrsS or I were offended??
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:59 AM   #737
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woah woah woah - first of all, let's please not make what bill clinton did and this stormy daniels thing out to be the same thing. they are definitely not. the lying is one thing but bill clinton used the power of his office to sleep with an employee. that is predatory and it's exactly what harvey weinstein's life right now is (rightfully IMO) in ruins for doing. trump sleeping with stormy daniels may have been a tawdry and gross affair but by all accounts it was not predatory, exploitative, or forced in any way, and moreover trump certainly hasn't lied under oath to deny it.

none of this is even considering any of the unproven allegations throughout clinton's career of more shenanigans like this.

donald trump is certainly a sexual predator in other cases as he has admitted himself, but let's please not make the mistake of equating the clinton-lewinsky affair with the trump-daniels story.
Oh, you're right about the prominent differences between Clinton and Trump, especially in relation to the issues involved. I also agree with Headache about the real concerns worth focusing on in relation to the whole Trump-Stormy business, and the reasons Clinton got in trouble.

For my part, though, I was mainly trying to explain and theorize about the difference in the public's reactions to Stormy and Monica themselves, and why some people were/are more willing to believe one woman, but not the other. I do agree that that's a question and discussion the public needs to have more of as well (and has been trying to have, thanks to the whole MeToo movement and all).
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:23 PM   #738
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donald trump is certainly a sexual predator in other cases as he has admitted himself, but let's please not make the mistake of equating the clinton-lewinsky affair with the trump-daniels story.
Once again, I agree with this. There was indeed power and work dynamic in play with Clinton that wasn't there with Trump (and promising to get Daniels on The Apprentice is not quite the same). There's also the fact that Clinton's machine, while he was in office, attempted to destroy Lewinsky and her reputation. And the fact that Trump's behavior was not while he was President of the United States, and didn't occur in the Oval Office. Even if Clinton never lied about the affair, what he did was still probably worse than what Trump did. So I get your point.

Clinton's lying under oath and subsequent impeachment due in part to lying about the affair, is a separate matter from his conduct with Lewinsky...the lying came later, and it's a trap Trump could still fall into. But that remains to be seen.

That said, there are some other obvious parallels, but in terms of the egregiousness of the offenses, Clinton's behaviour was probably, in this instance, worse than what Trump did.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:33 PM   #739
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i am guessing the "moral police" can't shame or destroy Daniels, she's a porn star and proud of it, so there's nowhere for a moral shaming to go, whereas Lewinsky was young, naive and vulnerable so they could have an absolute field day with her

guess it's all about how much control a woman has - Daniels is in control, Lewinsky was not, one was not a victim, the other was, so an easy target (thinking out loud)
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:40 PM   #740
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i am guessing the "moral police" can't shame or destroy Daniels, she's a porn star and proud of it, so there's nowhere for a moral shaming to go,
Ssssh. We're not supposed to mention her profession. That fact that she's a porn star isn't a relevant fact.

Seriously though, I agree with you.
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