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Irvine511 said:
The attention the Trump campaign knew to give Wisconsin, say, in the final week seems like good enough evidence.

You’re asking for something that no one could ever really give you, but the fact that he won an electoral college victory through three states involving 70,000 voters while at the same time losing the popular vote by 3m makes it seem self evident that the social media campaign was money well spent.
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Well, let's remember Trump spent tens of millions on social media micro targeting voters himself. And in the states he needed to win. So yes, that was definitely money well spent.

And why would the Trump people need the Russians to know they should target Wisconsin? They had their own people who knew that....and Clintons people should have as well.

Again, I just think this idea that 16 Russian trolls and 100K knew more about US politics and electoral strategy, and knew how to spend social media money, than both the Clinton and Trump campaigns, stretches credulity a little bit.

Irvine511 said:
McMaster is out. replaced by Bolton.

this should go well.
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Well Bolton is on FOX news a lot, you see.
 
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so you're asking what does it matter that the Trump campaign colluded with a hostile foreign government? it's the Clinton campaigns fault for losing, no matter the dirty pool her opponents swim in. she should have been better. it only matters if you can prove something objectively unprovable, and it's her fault for not being better?

is that what you're saying? because that's going to be the repeated line on Fox News in a few weeks.

Hillary does get blamed for literally everything, so i guess we shouldn't be surprised.
 
Irvine511 said:
so you're asking what does it matter that the Trump campaign colluded with a hostile foreign government?
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Wait...is there evidence of this? If this happened, of course it matters. Whether it impacted the election or not.

Irvine511 said:
it's the Clinton campaigns fault for losing, no matter the dirty pool her opponents swim in. she should have been better. it only matters if you can prove something objectively unprovable, and it's her fault for not being better?
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Well, frankly, yes. She should have run a better campaign in the states she needed to win.

Again, there's no evidence that Russian "collusion" cost Clinton the election. I'm not saying there was or wasn't collusion...I don't know. But even if there was, I haven't seen anything to suggest it was why Clinton lost.

And HRC doesn't deserve the blame for everything. But she does deserve the blame for the campaign she ran.
 
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Nick, collusion with Russia is what we’re leading up to, so don’t play lawyer with me.

I guess elections shouldn’t have any rules at all, because nothing should matter if you run a better campaign. That’s why entire nations aren’t banned from the Olympics for running state doping programs. It doesn’t matter if athletes dope, it’s your responsibility to work harder to beat them.
 
Irvine511 said:
Nick, collusion with Russia is what we’re leading up to, so don’t play lawyer with me.

I guess elections shouldn’t have any rules at all, because nothing should matter if you run a better campaign. That’s why entire nations aren’t banned from the Olympics for running state doping programs. It doesn’t matter if athletes dope, it’s your responsibility to work harder to beat them.
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Well I'm just wondering which election rules it's been established that the Trump campaign broke that caused them to win.

Anyway, you and I are not going to solve this. I'm only commenting on the evidence as we know it now. If there was a conspiracy by members of the Trump campaign to conspire with the Russians the steal the election, I'm confident Mueller's team will uncover it.
 
Irvine511 said:
Nick, collusion with Russia is what we’re leading up to, so don’t play lawyer with me.

I guess elections shouldn’t have any rules at all, because nothing should matter if you run a better campaign. That’s why entire nations aren’t banned from the Olympics for running state doping programs. It doesn’t matter if athletes dope, it’s your responsibility to work harder to beat them.
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No matter what you argue, he'll argue the opposite.

It's not worth your energy or sanity. It's his act, and it's old.
 
So WWIII starts one week after Bolton joins the team ?

This dude is bad. Not someone you want egging Trump on.

Scorch earth policy. If Trump’s going down, we all are.

Maybe that’s why he’s tanking the markets
 
Can Congress do something about Trump already? Please? I know I've said this before, but I really do not understand why they're willing to still let him stay on, what else they hope to get out of him. Pull the 25th Amendment clause or whatever other viable means they have at their disposal and let's be done with this moron already, for the love of God.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
Can Congress do something about Trump already? Please? I know I've said this before, but I really do not understand why they're willing to still let him stay on, what else they hope to get out of him. Pull the 25th Amendment clause or whatever other viable means they have at their disposal and let's be done with this moron already, for the love of God.
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Vote for Democrats no matter what.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
Can Congress do something about Trump already? Please? I know I've said this before, but I really do not understand why they're willing to still let him stay on, what else they hope to get out of him. Pull the 25th Amendment clause or whatever other viable means they have at their disposal and let's be done with this moron already, for the love of God.
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What Congress should do is pass legislation to protect the special counsel's office. That is where any legitimate reason to impeach will come from, and the outrage and calling of Congress to demand this should be happening now, before it happens. Instead it'll happen after it inevitably does. With O'Dowd and McMasters both resigning today, I wouldn't be shocked if Mueller is fired very soon. Possibly as soon as tomorrow to overshadow the protests this weekend.

The 25th amendment needs to come from his cabinet, and with every firing he's simply filling that with sycophants.

Anyone who is outraged by this disgusting period in our history should be focusing on 2018, 2020, and protecting Bob Mueller, not hoping for a miracle.
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
Can Congress do something about Trump already? Please? I know I've said this before, but I really do not understand why they're willing to still let him stay on, what else they hope to get out of him. Pull the 25th Amendment clause or whatever other viable means they have at their disposal and let's be done with this moron already, for the love of God.
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Trump is an embarrassment, and does need to go. But the Republicans aren't going to do anything. For the moment, their fate is tied to his, and they'll stick with him until the moment it's no longer politically expedient for them to do so...and not a second more or less. Right now, they have mid term elections to get through, and sadly given that these are base turnout elections, they probably have a better chance if they stick with him than if they ditch him. I do imagine that many, if not most Republicans, at least in the Senate, despise Trump, but of course most of them don't have the courage to say to publicly. Much less do something about it.

I wouldn't count on the Dems doing much either if they get control of Congress. They'll have investigations, etc., but their internal polling is telling them (for now) that impeachment is political suicide, because it's the one thing that will hyper motivate GOP voters. It's been widely reported that Dem candidates in competitive districts and states are being explicitly told not to talk about impeachment. And even if the House did impeach Trump, you'd have a hard time getting the votes in the Senate needed to remove him from office. At least as things stand now. And as far as I know, no serious person is seriously talking about the 25th Amendment.

That said, I do think it's possible that Congress could act...Dem or Republican, but only if it's established with rock solid, irrefutable evidence that Trump personally conspired with the Russians to steal the election, or engage in a quid pro quo. Or if it was established conclusively that he engaged in serious financial crimes. In that case, I think there's a chance they'd do something. But I don't think obstruction alone would be nearly enough.
 
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Headache in a Suitcase said:
Anyone who is outraged by this disgusting period in our history should be focusing on 2018, 2020, and protecting Bob Mueller, not hoping for a miracle.
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Irvine511 said:
Vote for Democrats no matter what.
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All true and fully agreed, but my issue is that I don't know that we can afford to wait that long anymore. I'd like to know there's something somebody's actively doing right now, something concrete that can put Trump and his crappy decisions at bay. And if it's not being done, what can we do to help make it happen?

Maybe the Parkland kids should organize protests for this, too.

Nick66 said:
Trump is an embarrassment, and does need to go. But the Republicans aren't going to do anything. For the moment, their fate is tied to his, and they'll stick with him until the moment it's no longer politically expedient for them to do so...and not a second more or less. Right now, they have mid term elections to get through, and sadly given that these are base turnout elections, they probably have a better chance if they stick with him than if they ditch him. I do imagine that many, if not most Republicans, at least in the Senate, despise Trump, but of course most of them don't have the courage to say to publicly. Much less do something about it.

I wouldn't count on the Dems doing much either if they get control of Congress. They'll have investigations, etc., but their internal polling is telling them (for now) that impeachment is political suicide, because it's the one thing that will hyper motivate GOP voters. It's been widely reported that Dem candidates in competitive districts and states are being explicitly told not to talk about impeachment. And even if the House did impeach Trump, you'd have a hard time getting the votes in the Senate needed to remove him from office. At least as things stand now. And as far as I know, no serious person is seriously talking about the 25th Amendment.

That said, I do think it's possible that Congress could act...Dem or Republican, but only if it's established with rock solid, irrefutable evidence that Trump personally conspired with the Russians to steal the election, or engage in a quid pro quo. Or if it was established conclusively that he engaged in serious financial crimes. In that case, I think there's a chance they'd do something. But I don't think obstruction alone would be nearly enough.
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That's the thing I don't get, though. What exactly has to happen for them to finally decide Trump is political poison to them? The Trump supporters that are left can't be that big a group to still turn an election in their favor, can it? They've seen how the special elections that have been happening are playing out, they know the majority of the country is sick and tired of Trump. How do they still think he's got any sort of benefit to them?

Hell, we don't even need the Russian investigation as a valid reason to get rid of Trump. There's plenty people could kick him out for that has nothing to do with Russian collusion, isn't there?

I sadly think you are right that the Democrats are torn between wanting to impeach Trump and not wanting to rouse GOP supporters, though. It'd be great if they can somehow find a way to push for impeachment while getting people of all political stripes on their side to support the idea.

I dunno. Just...at some point, Trump has to face some actual serious consequences for the shit he's pulling from somebody. Somebody needs to rein him in once and for all before he does any more damage.
 
LuckyNumber7 said:
Yes, the same goes to you.
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go back and read the thread, i was describing how the system actually works and the laws and social systems we have in place, which you completely disregarded

with all due respect, i lived in Scandinavia for 3 months (although i did speak the language fluently at the time, unlike you), but i would never dream of doing what you're doing here

you dish it out yourself but whine like hell when nick does the same to you
 
Well the good news is that Trump is suspicious of Bolton’s mustache, so he may not last long.

Wonder what Rosenstein is going to announce today ?
 
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