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Old 02-12-2018, 08:26 PM   #201
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:54 PM   #202
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It's not bullshit to point out that red-baiting is still prevalent. It's particularly evident when you're an actual leftist.
I see you never owned to to my question about he Soviet Union's own mistakes like Stalin's rule, heavy hypocrisy in some rather high living in the upper circles of the Politburo etc while many Russians lived in poor conditions (oh the "Brotherhood" of Communism)
while I have owned to many mistakes the USA has, and is still make....


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Well we know that Cali police have been some of worst racist in a structurally rascist institution (with occasional to some
exceptions) .
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:03 AM   #203
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I see you never owned to to my question about he Soviet Union's own mistakes like Stalin's rule, heavy hypocrisy in some rather high living in the upper circles of the Politburo etc while many Russians lived in poor conditions (oh the "Brotherhood" of Communism)
while I have owned to many mistakes the USA has, and is still make....
What are you trying to say here? I don't understand your post and I don't remember seeing this 'question' of yours. And own up to what? I've never praised/supported Stalin here, nor have I pretended that the Soviet Union was an example of some ideal society.

You seem to have a bone to pick and I'm not entirely sure why.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:41 AM   #204
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What are you trying to say here? I don't understand your post and I don't remember seeing this 'question' of yours. And own up to what? I've never praised/supported Stalin here, nor have I pretended that the Soviet Union was an example of some ideal society.

You seem to have a bone to pick and I'm not entirely sure why.
Well you said people shouldn’t engage in red baiting, so of course you support Stalin and agree with everything the Soviet Union ever did.
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Old 02-14-2018, 06:06 AM   #205
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:42 AM   #206
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The idea that being upset about Trump's kowtowing to the Russian government is some sort of "red baiting" or shot at the Russian people is preposterous.

Are there people who do that? Sure. They're called idiots.

My anger is directed solely at the current administration and the preceding campaign. I don't even blame Putin for trying to interfere with our election - I wouldn't expect him not to, and of course we try to do the same thing.

My anger is towards the dopes who accepted the help, and a clear as day history of association with criminals that said dopes also have, and how our current Congressional leadership are more concerned with passing ridiculous tax cuts, taking people's healthcare away and fucking football players who kneel than actually doing anything about it.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:59 AM   #207
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The idea that being upset about Trump's kowtowing to the Russian government is some sort of "red baiting" or shot at the Russian people is preposterous.

Are there people who do that? Sure. They're called idiots.

My anger is directed solely at the current administration and the preceding campaign. I don't even blame Putin for trying to interfere with our election - I wouldn't expect him not to, and of course we try to do the same thing.

My anger is towards the dopes who accepted the help, and a clear as day history of association with criminals that said dopes also have, and how our current Congressional leadership are more concerned with passing ridiculous tax cuts, taking people's healthcare away and fucking football players who kneel than actually doing anything about it.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:36 AM   #208
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I wonder, after defending him all this time, what Republicans will say if Mueller does find evidence that Trump illegally conspired with the Russians to steal the election? Will they apologise to the country for defending someone who helped steal an election and for playing into Putin's hands?

And I wonder, after engaging months of Russia hysteria and endless accusations of collusion, what will "The Resistance" say if Mueller finds no evidence of such collusion? Will they apologise to the country for questioning the legitimacy of the election and for playing into Putin's hands?
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:10 AM   #209
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I wonder, after defending him all this time, what Republicans will say if Mueller does find evidence that Trump illegal conspired with the Russians to steal the election? Will they apologise to the country for defending someone who helped steal an election and for playing into Putin's hands?

And I wonder, after engaging months of Russia hysteria and endless accusations of collusion, what will "The Resistance" say if Mueller finds no evidence of such collusion? Will they apologise to the country for questioning the legitimacy of the election and for playing into Putin's hands?


Answer #1: no, they will say a President Putin is better than a President Hillary.

Answer #2: no, there’s nothing to apologize for — an investigation is entirely justified based upon intelligence from 2016, and if there is “no collusion” then the investigation did its job. It doesn’t change the fact that the Russians clearly interfered with the goal of seeing chaos and electing Trump.

Again, this isn’t a “both sides do it” situation. And why are you equivocating between an elected political party (the GOP) and a loosely affiliated group of protestors (“the Reisitance”). They aren’t the same thing.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:34 PM   #210
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Answer #1: no, they will say a President Putin is better than a President Hillary.

Answer #2: no, there’s nothing to apologize for — an investigation is entirely justified based upon intelligence from 2016, and if there is “no collusion” then the investigation did its job. It doesn’t change the fact that the Russians clearly interfered with the goal of seeing chaos and electing Trump.

Again, this isn’t a “both sides do it” situation. And why are you equivocating between an elected political party (the GOP) and a loosely affiliated group of protestors (“the Reisitance”). They aren’t the same thing.
I find it amazing that for almost all of the issues, be it Election involvement with Russia, Uranium One, the FBI, etc. that if someone is wrong, in most cases the left will say

"No the right won't admit they were wrong"
and
"The Left has nothing to apologize for".

Like when Obama clearly said "I will have more flexibility" after the election". Nothingburger, nothing to see here.

Why are so many of these things "not a both sides issue"? Seems like a cop out.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:07 PM   #211
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what?
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:13 PM   #212
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what?
Not really that difficult to understand. More times the far left, and this forum is a strong example of it, do not like to address their own possible shortcomings or culpability.

Hence, "this is not a both sides issue." To the far left, there's NO chance that they could possibly be wrong or make a mistake.

I think you're passive aggressive condescending response proves my point.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:19 PM   #213
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the far left, and this forum is a strong example of it
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:22 PM   #214
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The reason "both sides do it" has proved such an enduring meme in American politics is because in politics both sides do almost everything. Including insisting their side doesn't do it but the other side does. Both sides do that also. Most people realise this. Extreme partisans don't, for obvious reasons.

There was a study a while back that demonstrated that the stronger someone felt about a political issue, the more likely they were to discard any information that would challenge their assumptions...just as they were likely to be less critical about information that confirmed their biases. And even when people are definitively shown that what they believe isn't factually true, they're still resistant to accept it, and likely to find a way to rationalise their own beliefs aligning with the facts.

Similarly, researchers have found, via functional neuroimaging, that the more strongly people feel when arguing about politics, it's the limbic system (the part of the brain that process emotions) that's being most stimulated rather than the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (the reasoning part of the brain). For example, information that contradicts strongly held beliefs causes the parts of the brain that control things like stress and frustration to light up. But once a partisan discards contradictory information and comes to a biased conclusion that confirms their own beliefs, the circuits in the brain that mediate things like stress, frustration and sadness tend to shut off, allowing a temporary feeling of satisfaction. So it's literally almost like a drug to have your own beliefs reinforced, and negative experience to have them challenged. Of course, we all experience this, but it's much more pronounced the stronger we feel about something, and especially pronounced in people who describe themselves as very partisan.

In other words, if you're very partisan, the stronger you feel about an issue you're invested in, the more likely you're thinking about it using emotion and not reason. It's why political arguments quickly become so heated and many people aren't able to discuss politics rationally. It's also why political ads, and the politicians who make them, try to appeal to our emotions and rather than our reason. Oh, and both sides do this also, in case there was any question.

I highly recommend The Political Brain: The Role Of Emotion In Deciding The Fate Of The Nation by Drew Weston, a psychologist at Emory (and a Democrat, if that matters), for anyone interested in this subject.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:23 PM   #215
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Yeah, I find the far left rather amusing myself. Now by far left, these days, what is centrist used to be considered far left.

I mean JFK wouldn't recognize the Democratic Party these days.

So I will amend my statement and say the left......because the point is the same.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:24 PM   #216
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The reason "both sides do it" has proved such an enduring meme in American politics is because in politics both sides do almost everything. Including insisting their side doesn't do it but the other side does. Both sides do that also. Most people realise this. Extreme partisans don't, for obvious reasons.

There was a study a while back that demonstrated that the stronger someone felt about a political or religious issue, the more likely they were to discard any information that would challenge their assumptions...just as they were likely to be less critical about information that confirmed their biases. And even when people are definitively shown that what they believe isn't factually true, they're still resistant to accept it, and likely to find a way to rationalise their own beliefs aligning with the facts.

Similarly, researchers have found that the more strongly people feel when arguing about politics, it's the limbic system (the part of the brain that process emotions) that's being most stimulated rather than the cerebrum. In other words, if you're very partisan, the stronger you feel about an issue you're invested in, the more likely you're thinking about it using emotion and not reason. It's why political arguments quickly become so heated and many people aren't able to discuss politics rationally.

I highly recommend The Political Brain: The Role Of Emotion In Deciding The Fate Of The Nation by Drew Weston, a psychologist at Emory, for anyone interested in this subject.
Sounds like an interesting read!!
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:38 PM   #217
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Not really that difficult to understand. More times the far left, and this forum is a strong example of it, do not like to address their own possible shortcomings or culpability.



Hence, "this is not a both sides issue." To the far left, there's NO chance that they could possibly be wrong or make a mistake.



I think you're passive aggressive condescending response proves my point.


This is so sweeping and generalized and confused that I don’t even know what to respond to.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:40 PM   #218
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Yeah, I find the far left rather amusing myself. Now by far left, these days, what is centrist used to be considered far left.

I mean JFK wouldn't recognize the Democratic Party these days.

So I will amend my statement and say the left......because the point is the same.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:45 PM   #219
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Vlad is going to be soooooo upset.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:45 PM   #220
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Yeah, I find the far left rather amusing myself. Now by far left, these days, what is centrist used to be considered far left.

I mean JFK wouldn't recognize the Democratic Party these days.

So I will amend my statement and say the left......because the point is the same.


I was going to make a comment regarding the "both sides do it" arguments that in the US the political center has shifted a lot in the last 2 decades or so. One of the developments has been for the hard right to declare even the center-left to be extreme, this to make themselves appear more mainstream. And then the center-right was declared to be far-left.
I mean, from an international perspective Obama and Hillary Clinton were both on the center-right part of the political spectrum (with Obama being a bit more to the center). And solely based on his political ideas, Reagan would likely be branded a leftist too these days.

And then this comment comes along...
You could say that it proves my point.
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