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So should people who are poor through no fault of their own, like someone with a chronic illness who can't work or a child, be provided with health insurance and health care by the government, or should they be left to die?

Personal responsibility!!!

They shouldn't have gotten sick, if you can't afford it, don't get sick.
 
Of course not. Free doesn’t mean free. Free means someone else pays for you.



I don’t expect my kids to feel entitled to free anything. That’s one of the huge problems in this country



You want people to increase their skills so they can get better jobs, but if someone can't afford to go to school (because they work in a minimum wage job) to get those skills, your solution is to simply say "tough shit"?
 
Back in my day, we didn't have health care. We rubbed dirt in our musket wounds and harvested leeches out of the river whenever the blood started going sour. Health care is a scheme by the reds to drain hard-working farmers of their last dime.

And don't even get me started on unions! Laborers used to have self-respect.
 
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Nope, if someone is truly disabled and can’t work or elderly, then I think they should be taken care of. I wish it was all done by charity and not the government, but those that truly need the assistance “the least of these” should get help.



It’s the able bodied who take advantage of the system that need a little nudge into reality


What about someone's who's able-bodied and then gets in an accident or gets sick? If they don't have insurance, because they weren't forced to purchase it, what happens to them? If we provide care for them then they're free loading off everyone because they didn't pay insurance at all before they got sick. But, if they're forced to purchase insurance so that they're insured when they get sick it's an affront to freedom?

Also, the fact that you keep bringing up the people who supposedly take advantage of the system is telling. People need healthcare. People who seek care aren't taking advantage of the system.
 
You certainly do like to jump to conclusions, don’t ya!



But if you’re able to work, and that’s what’s available , then yes, you should!!



People who are unemployed shouldn't die because they can't afford healthcare.
 
People who are unemployed shouldn't die because they can't afford healthcare.



To add to that: People who seek emergency services shouldn't be cut from access to credit and branded financially untrustworthy for nearly a decade because they can't afford healthcare at a price they had no choice but to accept.
 
Nope, if someone is truly disabled and can’t work or elderly, then I think they should be taken care of. I wish it was all done by charity and not the government, but those that truly need the assistance “the least of these” should get help.

Charity is great, but it can only go so far. For people who have lengthy healthcare concerns, they can't expect to rely solely on charity forever.

And I find it funny that relying on charity isn't an entitlement, but relying on government aid is. You do know that people can take advantage of charities, too, right, the way they can with the government?

It’s the able bodied who take advantage of the system that need a little nudge into reality

This discussion now has me curious to see actual statistics of just how common this whole "taking advantage of the system" thing really is. I frankly honestly don't know how people who would take advantage manage to do so in the first place. When my parents had to file for government assistance they went through a shitload of red tape to even be considered for it, let alone get it. And I imagine that's the case for the vast majority of people who ask for government aid, too.

Again, yes, there are people who can and do take advantage of the system, but I get the feeling this whole "people scamming the system" thing is more often than not a boogeyman tactic that people like to use.

I don’t expect my kids to feel entitled to free anything. That’s one of the huge problems in this country

Wanting to be able to afford to go to the doctor, and wanting to go without going broke, to take care of one's health problems is not being entitled. Please stop with that word already.
 
In principle, charity... "volunteerism," a core fundamental of a libertarian ideology, is fantastic. Much like in communism you end up finding that it opens the door to anti-communism through authoritarianism, a basis of volunteerism leads to greed. Or, what's a worse prospect, sometimes you find that government entities that get replaced in a volunteerism model simply get replaced by businesses in a lateral move (except the businesses aren't people in most cases, and only function to take your money).

There are principles in the libertarian philosophy that are wonderful. Relying on volunteerism for things where greed can walk through the front door... nonsense.

Now, sometimes decentralization is the most powerful tool. Healthcare? No.
 
To this point? No one. The world right now is pay-to-play. At least there are some mechanisms for fighting back against it via the government. Let's start there. How about fighting voter suppression? Make gerrymandering illegal, increase access to voter registration, make election days holidays. Baby steps.

Elections being on a weekend day makes sense to me. I'm sure there's a few good reasons not to, but I think it would help boost turnout overall if that's the goal.
 
Elections being on a weekend day makes sense to me. I'm sure there's a few good reasons not to, but I think it would help boost turnout overall if that's the goal.



I don't think I understand or have ever heard the argument against Election Day being a holiday.

Hell, please the private sector with *tax incentives* for taking the day off.
 
The problem is also disengagement. Yes there are people who don’t vote because it’s a hassle to go the day of if they have to work or get kids from school or whatever. But early and absentee voting hasn’t really moved the needle with this crowd.

I think the majority of those who don’t vote just don’t care, are disengaged from the political system, have no interest, move in social circles that equally don’t care and making voting on a stat holiday would not incentivize them to do much more than sleep in.
 
The problem is also disengagement. Yes there are people who don’t vote because it’s a hassle to go the day of if they have to work or get kids from school or whatever. But early and absentee voting hasn’t really moved the needle with this crowd.

I think the majority of those who don’t vote just don’t care, are disengaged from the political system, have no interest, move in social circles that equally don’t care and making voting on a stat holiday would not incentivize them to do much more than sleep in.



Disengagement is of course a problem. But you fight disengagement through a shift in culture. What's a better way to make a shift in culture than to make a day a celebrated holiday?
 
Disengagement is of course a problem. But you fight disengagement through a shift in culture. What's a better way to make a shift in culture than to make a day a celebrated holiday?
You mean like how we all honor our veterans on Memorial Day by getting shit canned and going on vacation?

I don't think making it a holiday will push the needle. It may actually decrease participation.

I think we should focus simply on making it easier. More voting stations, better tech, less 80 year olds handing out long forms to be bubbled in.
 
You mean like how we all honor our veterans on Memorial Day by getting shit canned and going on vacation?

I don't think making it a holiday will push the needle. It may actually decrease participation.

I think we should focus simply on making it easier. More voting stations, better tech, less 80 year olds handing out long forms to be bubbled in.



Well if you envision it like a voting tailgate, sure.
 
I think things like extended voting hours and early voting via mail in ballots have a lot more potential to get people to vote than a holiday. As Headache said, I think most people would in fact treat a voting holiday as just that... a holiday. Same with putting it on a Saturday. I don't think most people are going to give up their Saturday to go wait in line to vote.

And, not to be harsh, but if you are so disinterested in democracy that you can't be bothered to vote, including doing something as simple as licking a stamp in some places, I'm not sure I want you voting anyway. The problem, IMO, isn't the inconvenience of voting, it's an apathetic citizenry.
 
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I think things like extended voting hours early voting via mail in ballots have a lot more potential to get people to vote than a holiday.

The majority of states already have early voting AND absentee voting. Some states are mail-in only voting. It has not moved the needle as I said.

I don't think that the disengaged care enough to vote regardless of the day or time. And I agree with you that they would be LESS likely to vote on a Saturday.

The only thing I can think of would be internet voting via app or something, the way you do for shareholder meetings but that is rife with problems. First you'd need to get your package with the voter access number in the mail on time (many people move, addresses on file are not updated, voters aren't registered in advance, mail delivery issues), then you'd have to make sure the voting isn't fraudulent, that there is no hacking, double voting, etc. I don't see it as realistic that we're there yet with technology and I also worry that people would see such elections as illegitimate.
 
The state where I live (Oregon...no I'm Oregoropaaawhateverhe'saNazi), has vote by mail and just implemented automatic voter registration. Our voter turnout is one of the highest in the nation. Every state with a Democratic trifecta (governor, House, Senate), needs to implement those reforms. Boosting voter turnout is how Dems win.
 
The majority of states already have early voting AND absentee voting. Some states are mail-in only voting. It has not moved the needle as I said.

I don't think that the disengaged care enough to vote regardless of the day or time. And I agree with you that they would be LESS likely to vote on a Saturday.

The only thing I can think of would be internet voting via app or something, the way you do for shareholder meetings but that is rife with problems. First you'd need to get your package with the voter access number in the mail on time (many people move, addresses on file are not updated, voters aren't registered in advance, mail delivery issues), then you'd have to make sure the voting isn't fraudulent, that there is no hacking, double voting, etc. I don't see it as realistic that we're there yet with technology and I also worry that people would see such elections as illegitimate.

i wonder if you would be able to verify your identity via the fingerprint scanner on your phone?
 
Would there be a lot of pushback if we were to try and make voting mandatory? Or does that seem like something many would be okay with doing?



I think you'd find bipartisanship opposing mandatory voting. Quite against the freedom of choice that the country strives to achieve (though doesn't always get).
 
What does everyone think of compulsory voting? Here in Aus everyone on the electoral role has to vote or face a fine. Of course political parties need to excite the youth of the day to actually sign onto the role, but our current right wing PM did that via the Marriage Equality survey. Idiot.

Voting also occurs on Saturdays, but it's very easy to vote early at your local council if it's more convenient. Democracy sausages are only served on Saturdays though!

I have friends back in the UK who seem leery of compulsory voting, so I'd imagine it would face an uphill battle in the US.
 
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What does everyone think of compulsory voting? Here in Aus everyone on the electoral role has to vote or face a fine. Of course political parties need to excite the youth of the day to actually sign onto the role, but our current right wing PM did that via the Marriage Equality survey. Idiot.

Voting also occurs on Saturdays, but it's very easy to vote early at your local council if it's more convenient. Democracy sausages are only served on Saturdays though!

I have friends back in the UK who seem leery of compulsory voting, so I'd imagine it would face an uphill battle in the US.



What are your thoughts on it? Do you think it’s a good policy?
 
Sure do. I think it should be adopted in more countries worldwide, such as the USA. As an American, do you think it would be beneficial for your government to insist every eligible citizen casts a ballot at the expense of your freedom to not bother?
 
Sure do. I think it should be adopted in more countries worldwide, such as the USA. As an American, do you think it would be beneficial for your government to insist every eligible citizen casts a ballot at the expense of your freedom to not bother?



Yep
 
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