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Old 01-30-2018, 07:56 AM   #1001
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To be fair, being wrong and misleading people with bad, uninformed info doesn't exactly lend itself to a healthy, fact based discussion.
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Old 01-30-2018, 10:08 AM   #1002
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Yea there's a lot of that going on. Fake news and such, AMIRITE!!?
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Old 01-30-2018, 11:09 AM   #1003
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To be fair, the "you're wrong about everything" debate tactic doesn't exactly lend itself to a healthy discussion
I would like people here to understand that it is extremely exhausting to try to participate in debate with center-leftists and Democrats with leftist critique. Speaking broadly and not necessarily about anyone here in particular, they have spent so much of the last 20 years convincing themselves that they are on the right side of every issue simply by being opposed to Republicans, and they still believe in the Sorkin-esque notion of debate and moderate policies and bipartisanship being an effective means of governance. Hell, I would know, I used to be there before I learned more about what is going on.

The true left finally being something discussed in public is something many centrists center-leftists can't wrap their heads around. Clinton was an objectively terrible candidate, and that fact is something many are not willing to acknowledge. More importantly, her candidacy is symbolic of so many of the problems with the Democratic Party and its platforms, insofar as it even has platforms any longer, which is debatable.

I will admit that both sides of this debate on the left choose to go narrow and broad in their analyses based on what benefits them in the moment. But the Republicans have all three houses, and it's not because the Democrats need to move further to the right. Thinking we need to commit MORE to centrism is a fundamental misread on what the hell has happened over the last two decades. Too many cannot understand that, whether it's because they're too far down the rabbit hole or simply because it doesn't benefit them to think that way.
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Old 01-30-2018, 11:35 AM   #1004
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I would like people here to understand that it is extremely exhausting to try to participate in debate with center-leftists and Democrats with leftist critique. Speaking broadly and not necessarily about anyone here in particular, they have spent so much of the last 20 years convincing themselves that they are on the right side of every issue simply by being opposed to Republicans, and they still believe in the Sorkin-esque notion of debate and moderate policies and bipartisanship being an effective means of governance. Hell, I would know, I used to be there before I learned more about what is going on.

The true left finally being something discussed in public is something many centrists center-leftists can't wrap their heads around. Clinton was an objectively terrible candidate, and that fact is something many are not willing to acknowledge. More importantly, her candidacy is symbolic of so many of the problems with the Democratic Party and its platforms, insofar as it even has platforms any longer, which is debatable.

I will admit that both sides of this debate on the left choose to go narrow and broad in their analyses based on what benefits them in the moment. But the Republicans have all three houses, and it's not because the Democrats need to move further to the right. Thinking we need to commit MORE to centrism is a fundamental misread on what the hell has happened over the last two decades. Too many cannot understand that, whether it's because they're too far down the rabbit hole or simply because it doesn't benefit them to think that way.
I think this debate about the battle for the soul of the Democratic party (and it is a battle) is possibly the most interesting discussion in US politics right now (it's certainly more interesting than obsessing over whatever the idiot Trump Tweet of the day is). The left is where all the energy in the party right now, and the party leadership, who are invested in decades of centrism, are just trying to ride the tiger.

In the short term, the battle is most evident between Democrats who are thinking about 2018 (and protecting the party centrists in red and purple states) and those thinking about running against Trump in 2020 (who are concerned with winning the Democratic nomination, which means firing up the left wing base). You only need look at how Senators voted in the recent shutdown debacle to see evidence of this.
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Old 01-30-2018, 11:37 AM   #1005
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. Hell, I would know, I used to be there before I learned more about what is going on.
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The true left finally being something discussed in public is something many centrists center-leftists can't wrap their heads around.
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Too many cannot understand that, whether it's because they're too far down the rabbit hole or simply because it doesn't benefit them to think that way.


i mean this with respect, because i do respect you, but statements like these make you sound like a born-again Christian, only with leftist politics.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:30 PM   #1006
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I don't want to go down this debate of who's a true xxxxx. A socialist ran against a centrist, and lost, by millions of votes. Were the cards stacked against him? Sort of, but he was given every chance to win and he was blown out in the primaries.

We may not even get a chance to find out as the GOP and Trump are stacking the deck against whoever runs against them in 2018.

99% of congress voted for sanctions against Russia. Trump signed it, but refuses to impose them. Nothing is being done. The democrats have no voice, and the GOP don't want to go against Trump.

This is really the first time I'm worried that Trump and the GOP are going to seriously destroy this country. We are walking a very fine line right now.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:40 PM   #1007
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This is really the first time I'm worried that Trump and the GOP are going to seriously destroy this country. We are walking a very fine line right now.
How would they "destroy" it?

What, specifically, are you worried about happening? (that has a realistic chance of happening)
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:48 PM   #1008
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How would they "destroy" it?

What, specifically, are you worried about happening? (that has a realistic chance of happening)
We have a President who seems to be influenced by a foreign country, Russia.

We have a President and majority in congress who are undermining our federal law enforcement agencies.

If we cannot trust any of our institutions, then what is the point of having them?

I'm not trying to say that it'll become Mad Max around here, but we have serious fucking problems on the horizon and if people cannot trust their leaders to execute plans and ideas to try and fix the problem, then where do we go?

There was a bipartisan bill passed through Congress to sanction Russia. Trump's own CIA pick has said Russia is going to try and influence our 2018 elections.

The White House is saying it's not a problem.

The perception is the rule of law doesn't apply anymore.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:55 PM   #1009
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i mean this with respect, because i do respect you, but statements like these make you sound like a born-again Christian, only with leftist politics.
This is exactly the response I'm talking about. Leftists can say the most reasonable, most true things possible, and Democrats act like they're batshit.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:56 PM   #1010
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While those are all worrying situations, I believe the country will survive them...and Trump.

And getting Americans to distrust their leaders, and institutions, and question the legitimacy of our electoral process, was the primary objective of the "Russians" all along. I doubt they really expected Trump to win (even if they did try to help him do so), mainly they just wanted to divide the country and weaken a probable President Clinton. Trump winning was just a bonus for them.

In any event, they succeeded, wildly. And for what was probably a relatively small investment. But it's both the left and right who being used by Putin. The more people engage in Russia hysteria, the more they play into their hands.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:56 PM   #1011
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I don't want to go down this debate of who's a true xxxxx. A socialist ran against a centrist, and lost, by millions of votes. Were the cards stacked against him? Sort of, but he was given every chance to win and he was blown out in the primaries.

We may not even get a chance to find out as the GOP and Trump are stacking the deck against whoever runs against them in 2018.

99% of congress voted for sanctions against Russia. Trump signed it, but refuses to impose them. Nothing is being done. The democrats have no voice, and the GOP don't want to go against Trump.

This is really the first time I'm worried that Trump and the GOP are going to seriously destroy this country. We are walking a very fine line right now.
I'm not talking about Sanders and Clinton. If we want to talk about leftist politicians, I'd prefer to talk about Jeremy Corbyn, honestly.

The GOP has been doing this forever. The Democrats don't know how to combat it because they have too many conflicts of interest and can't reconcile them.
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Old 01-30-2018, 12:57 PM   #1012
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This is exactly the response I'm talking about. Leftists can say the most reasonable, most true things possible, and Democrats act like they're batshit.


Ok, thanks for the response.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:01 PM   #1013
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Is there precedence for Congress and the House overwhelming passing something and then the president deciding not to enact/enforce it, despite already having signed it? (If I'm understanding the timeline correctly; I might not be.)

Is this Trump inaction re new Russian sanctions some new thing we should be upset about, or have other presidents done this sort of thing as well?

Not that the two things are mutually exclusive, but some of the stuff I see going on, I want to approach it like this. Like, did Obama or Bush do it, and I just didn't notice because I wasn't paying attention, and/or it's not really that unusual for a president to do?
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:19 PM   #1014
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Well, not laws that he signed, but a couple of examples.

Obama instructed the Justice Department not to enforce federal marijuana laws in states that legalized marijuana.

Obama directed the Department of Homeland Security not to deport foreign partners of gay Americans before same-sex marriage became the law of the land.

Both decisions that I supported, mind you, but plenty on the right did not.

ETA: As far as I know, neither pot growers nor same-sex marriage advocates had a piss tape they were holding over Obama's head. Maybe they had a copy of his Kenyan birth certificate.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:21 PM   #1015
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Is there precedence for Congress and the House overwhelming passing something and then the president deciding not to enact/enforce it, despite already having signed it? (If I'm understanding the timeline correctly; I might not be.)

Is this Trump inaction re new Russian sanctions some new thing we should be upset about, or have other presidents done this sort of thing as well?

Not that the two things are mutually exclusive, but some of the stuff I see going on, I want to approach it like this. Like, did Obama or Bush do it, and I just didn't notice because I wasn't paying attention, and/or it's not really that unusual for a president to do?
Well since the Executive Branch is responsible for enforcement of the law, they get to prioritise when and how laws get enforced.

An example of this that was made a big deal of at the time is President Obama and immigration. Even though there are immigration laws on the books on how to deal with people in the country illegally, the President can prioritise which undocumented immigrants to deport first (if at all).

President Obama also chose to note enforce the Defense of Marriage Act.

Similarly, George Bush didn't exactly rigidly enforce immigration law either, and his administration was known for lax enforcement of some environmental laws.

In fact, there are lots of laws that go unenforced because as administrations change, priorities do.

In this case, while I'm not familiar with the specifics, but normally the administration would have a good deal of leeway in how to enforce sanctions...including interpreting when they'd be triggered (and this is especially true for treaties or anything to do with foreign policy).
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:22 PM   #1016
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Okay, thanks for the info on that!

This seems different from the Obama examples, as they didn't fall right on the heels of the Senate/House voting for something, they were just existing laws he wasn't going to prioritize?

Maybe that point about the timing of a vote isn't as important as I'm making it out to be?
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:25 PM   #1017
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Okay, thanks for the info on that!

This seems different from the Obama examples, as they didn't fall right on the heels of the Senate/House voting for something, they were just existing laws he wasn't going to prioritize?

Maybe that point about the timing of a vote isn't as important as I'm making it out to be?
Nothing I can think of that Congress had just recently voted for overwhelmingly.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:26 PM   #1018
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Maybe I'll hold my political rage for something else, then.

Thanks!
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:28 PM   #1019
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I say give him enough rope to hang himself. This won't look good if obstruction of justice charges are ever brought.
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Old 01-30-2018, 03:30 PM   #1020
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Everything is just so batshit crazy that it's hard to determine what deserves a deeper look, or what is just relatively normal political bullshit. Trying to be better about that deeper look.
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