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Old 01-25-2018, 04:32 PM   #921
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Well OK, but I'm not sure how that gives Schneiderman the ability to "block" Trump from pardoning members of his family. How does that work?

As I said, the Manafort situation is different...there's potentially leverage there.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:38 PM   #922
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Well OK, but I'm not sure how that gives Schneiderman the ability to "block" Trump from pardoning members of his family. How does that work?

As I said, the Manafort situation is different...there's potentially leverage there.
the president can only pardon federal crimes. trump would have no pardon power if kush or jr are charged with a NY state offense.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:40 PM   #923
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Well OK, but I'm not sure how that gives Schneiderman the ability to "block" Trump from pardoning members of his family. How does that work?

As I said, the Manafort situation is different...there's potentially leverage there.
Because the deals took place in the state of New York.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:43 PM   #924
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Of course the President can only pardon for Federal crimes. That's what I said above.

And of course Schneiderman can indict Trump's kids for state crimes they may have committed in New York.

I'm still not clear how any of this blocks Trump's ability to pardon his family for Federal crimes.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:48 PM   #925
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I'm still not clear how any of this blocks Trump's ability to pardon his family for Federal crimes.
it doesn't. nobody suggested otherwise.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:49 PM   #926
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it doesn't. nobody suggested otherwise.
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Schneiderman is absolutely there as a pardon block for members of the Trump family, specifically Kushner and the President himself.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:53 PM   #927
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Of course the President can only pardon for Federal crimes. That's what I said above.

And of course Schneiderman can indict Trump's kids for state crimes they may have committed in New York.

I'm still not clear how any of this blocks Trump's ability to pardon his family for Federal crimes.
I believe the reasoning is something like this:
Schneiderman does not have any official power to block a presidential pardon for federal crimes. However, should Trump's family get pardoned for them, while there are also state-level crimes for which they can be tried, then Trump cannot pardon them for those. And because those family members are pardoned for federal crimes, they cannot plead the 5th when asked about them. So Mueller can gather more info to be used against those even higher up the chain.
And oh, they might still go to jail, just for other offenses.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:54 PM   #928
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sigh...

A pardon block in that a federal pardon will only trigger the state investigation - which could conceivably be worse for Trump and his finances.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:56 PM   #929
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schneiderman is there as a "pardon block" because if he charges anyone with a state crime, trump can't pardon it. the whole idea being that there won't only be federal charges that trump can just blanket pardon and everyone gets off scott free.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:57 PM   #930
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I believe the reasoning is something like this:
Schneiderman does not have any official power to block a presidential pardon for federal crimes. However, should Trump's family get pardoned for them, while there are also state-level crimes for which they can be tried, then Trump cannot pardon them for those. And because those family members are pardoned for federal crimes, they cannot plead the 5th when asked about them. So Mueller can gather more info to be used against those even higher up the chain.
And oh, they might still go to jail, just for other offenses.
Right.

The idea is that the only reason why Trump hasn't already just issued blanket pardons and fired Mueller is because the NYSAG has been cooperating with Mueller the entire time.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:00 PM   #931
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I believe the reasoning is something like this:
Schneiderman does not have any official power to block a presidential pardon for federal crimes. However, should Trump's family get pardoned for them, while there are also state-level crimes for which they can be tried, then Trump cannot pardon them for those. And because those family members are pardoned for federal crimes, they cannot plead the 5th when asked about them. So Mueller can gather more info to be used against those even higher up the chain.
Even with a pardon, they could still plead the 5th, as long as they're under criminal jeopardy (for even tangentially related matters) in NY.

Look, here's why this matters for Manafort. He's under active investigation in NY for money laundering and other financial crimes, unrelated to the campaign. So even if Trump pardoned him for any Federal crimes, he could still be pressured to cooperate with the special counsel in exchange for a favourable deal in NY.

But as far as I know, Trump's kids aren't even under criminal investigation in New York for New York state crimes (and they'd know it if they were). So a lot would have to happen for this scenario to be even somewhat plausible. And then you'd have to assume that they'd agree to testify or provide damaging information against their father (who probably can't be indicted while he's in office anyway) to the special counsel in order to get leniency from...sworn enemy Eric Schniederman. None of these seems like a likely scenario to me at the moment.

And if Schneiderman, a very partisan Democrat, and self-styled member of the resistance, tried to go after Trump's family, criminally, in New York, all hell would break loose. I think he'd have to recuse himself and let a deputy do it.

Don't get me wrong...Trump's kids can and should be charged criminally if they've broken NY state law. So if what people are saying is "Trump can't keep his kids out of jail by pardoning them"...well, yeah. Of course. But in terms of the the special counsel's investigation, I think there are limits to the pressure that can be applied to them via New York, and it certainly can't block Trump from pardoning them for Federal crimes. And all this is assuming that there are NY state crimes to charge his kids or Kushner with in the first place. There's a lot of speculation there.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:16 PM   #932
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It's all about the money, and the dirty money is in NY real estate deals.

I suppose it all depends on whether you actually believe that Trump Org has been helping to hide Russian money in shady real estate dealings or not - specifically in regards to the former Trump SoHo Hotel.


This is why a friend of mine continues to insist: “they’re all going to jail.”
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:16 PM   #933
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Under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, Americans are protected against self-incrimination, but people who have been pardoned are no longer under any legal jeopardy, Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe told TIME.

“Anyone pardoned by Trump would lose most of the 5th Amendment’s protection against compelled testimony that might otherwise have incriminated the pardoned family member or associate, making it much easier for DOJ and Congress to require such individuals to give testimony that could prove highly incriminating to Trump himself,” Tribe said in an email.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:26 PM   #934
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Under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, Americans are protected against self-incrimination, but people who have been pardoned are no longer under any legal jeopardy, Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe told TIME.

“Anyone pardoned by Trump would lose most of the 5th Amendment’s protection against compelled testimony that might otherwise have incriminated the pardoned family member or associate, making it much easier for DOJ and Congress to require such individuals to give testimony that could prove highly incriminating to Trump himself,” Tribe said in an email.
That's only true as far as it goes...as long as the legal jeopardy is gone.

A Presidential pardon only removes you from legal jeopardy in Federal court. If you're under legal jeopardy anywhere else, including state court, for related matters, you can't be compelled to incriminate yourself. Period. Even Larry Tribe knows that. And if you asked him, that's what he'd tell you.

So if Trump pardons his family, and they're under no legal jeopardy in New York for related matters, then yes, they probably lose their 5th Amendment privilege. But this whole conversation has been about how Schniederman can use state charges as leverage against Trump's kids. The special counsel can certainly say "Don Jr. I know your daddy gave you a pardon, but you're facing serious time in NY. if you cooperate with us, we'll make sure the AG there goes easy on you." But in this scenario, as long as Don Jr. is under legal jeopardy (even if it's just an investigation) in NY for related matters, he can't be compelled to talk, because it might incriminate him, and be used against him in NY.

Then there's another issue. If the special counsel tries to indict one of Trumps kids, Trump can pardon him for just that offense. So Mueller could only compel the kid to testify on matters related to that offence alone, because he'd still be in legal jeopardy for other potential crimes. Unless of course he offered immunity. But that would have to be something that Eric, or Don, or Jared would have to voluntarily accept and work out with their lawyers.

There are other potential scenarios that could arise, things like use immunity, but that's getting way into the weeds.
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Old 01-25-2018, 05:56 PM   #935
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Can you pardon secret societies ?
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:07 PM   #936
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Let's just skip ahead

I'll post like a dozen different articles by different legal scholars, Nick will come faults in everything one, done others will post things, Nick will point out something silly like with the "pardon block" thing, this will go on for 20 or so posts and get nowhere.

So let's just call it legal scholars vs Nick and see who ends up being right
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:21 PM   #937
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So let's just call it legal scholars vs Nick and see who ends up being right
Show me a legal scholar who disagrees with me on this point. You haven't so far. You think you have, but you haven't.

As to what I was saying about still being able to assert your 5th Amendment privilege, and refuse to testify, after a Federal pardon, if you're still under legal jeadpordy for a related matter in state court...

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If you’re pardoned, can you be compelled to testify about your crime?

... if the prospect of criminal liability disappears — whether because he has been granted adequate immunity by prosecutors, or because he has accepted a presidential pardon — then the privilege against self-incrimination also disappears.

...Of course, that only works to the extent that the pardon does indeed foreclose the possibility that your testimony will be used against you in a criminal prosecution. A presidential pardon, for instance, only applies to federal crimes; if the conduct could also be prosecuted as a state crime, the witness can refuse to testify about it.
Since you're so enamoured of legal scholars, Eugene Volokh is one of the best.

BTW, none of what I, or Volokh is saying here, contradicts what Professor Tribe wrote (that you quoted out of context). No one denies that once criminal jeopardy is no longer an issue, in any venue, whether via a pardon or otherwise, you lose your right against self-incrimination. I said as much. Tribe just wasn't addressing the issue of dual sovereignty or continued legal jeopardy in state court.

So, yeah sorry. We're all in agreement. Except you, that is.
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:35 PM   #938
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This is why a friend of mine continues to insist: “they’re all going to jail.”
Do you agree that's likely to happen?

I'd be genuinely surprised if I saw anyone in this investigation actually go to jail. At this point, I'd just be satisfied to see them all forced to leave the White House. But if there's any chance that at least some, if not all, of these people could actually serve time for their crap, that would be good to see.

I do agree with BEAL's concerns about how Trump supporters would respond if such a thing were to happen, though.
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Old 01-25-2018, 07:04 PM   #939
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Let's just skip ahead

I'll post like a dozen different articles by different legal scholars, Nick will come faults in everything one, done others will post things, Nick will point out something silly like with the "pardon block" thing, this will go on for 20 or so posts and get nowhere.

So let's just call it legal scholars vs Nick and see who ends up being right


*then you'll be told to stick to basketball
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Old 01-25-2018, 07:20 PM   #940
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*then you'll be told to stick to basketball
Meh... wouldn't be the first time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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