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Old 01-10-2018, 11:39 PM   #781
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Sure do. I think it should be adopted in more countries worldwide, such as the USA. As an American, do you think it would be beneficial for your government to insist every eligible citizen casts a ballot at the expense of your freedom to not bother?


The last thing I want is people voting *just because they have to*. People have to want to vote.

If we were talking about a system that was based upon popular vote and popular vote alone, maybe compulsory voting has some leg to stand on. As it stands right now, there's no reason to stress a system to handle double the necessary capacity in some states.

Go to voting reform with ending gerrymandering and destroy the winner-take-all model of electorates in states before we even begin to debate compulsory voting.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:04 AM   #782
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There's a reason why our Founding Fathers wanted to keep the central Federal Government small, because the more things it gets involved in, the more it screws up.
Just as an aside, can you ever foresee a time when the world has evolved to the point where what a bunch of wealthy white folk from the 18th century extolled as wisdom has, in fact, become obsolete?

You talk about the market. Adam Smith, or the Founding Fathers, lived in a time where modern health care would have seemed as far fetched as people flying to the moon.

I live in a country with state-funded health care. We also have private care for those who want it. Roughly speaking our per capita health spend is half that of the US while our measurable outcomes are, for the most part, far better.
It works. Like a publicly funded police force works.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:18 AM   #783
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The problem is when no responsibility is given to some, and additional responsibility is given to others, it gives no incentive for the first group to improve their circumstances. Many will out of their own hard work and determination, but unfortunately, many won't unless nudged a bit
This is true. NZ has had public welfare since the 30s. As generations go on knowing nothing other than welfare, perspectives change. A challenge becomes convincing people to enter the workforce when, at times, they'd rather stay on welfare.

None of this stuff is simple black and white stuff. Every solution seems to have a consequential problem. It bugs me when people sound off about all they hate about a given political reality while offering no ideas about improvements.

Headache is right. Automation will be like a Roman invasion was to Britain, or the conquistadors were to America. Everything is going to change, some of that change will be brutal for many. And I have no idea what we do about it.

The comforting thought is that automation doesn't mean food and medicine and clean water etc won't be available any longer. So theoreticallywe should be fine.
The horrifying thought is that since when has western civilization been purely about food, medicine and clean water? Change creates chances for power to be fought for. God knows where it will lead.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:21 AM   #784
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I wonder when we'll find out that there is no perfect system, and that the answer is an ever changing combination of all systems based on circumstances
Wisdom
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:30 AM   #785
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Ole President Poopy Pants is doing a lot of tweeting this morning... I wonder what's dropping today (other than his approval rating... Hiyoooo)
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:16 AM   #786
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While the SCOTUS hasn't rule on this point, I'm not sure mandatory voting is Constitutional.

For one thing, which article in the Constitution would allow for such a thing? And in any event any such compulsion would certainly run afoul of the First Amendment...the Government's limits on compelling speech are the same as they are on abridging it. Choosing not to vote can be a kind of protest, and protest is certainly protected speech.

I understand what Australia has done, but even setting aside the Constitutional issues, the notion that the Government can compel citizens like that is pretty antithetical to American culture and traditions....one of the primary ones is the right of people to be left alone. I just can't see this ever happening. And I'm not sure what the upside of it would be anyway? Of all the reasons to vote, doing so because you're being forced to under penalty of law by your own Government seems like the worst one. Do we really want people voting under those circumstances?

I think if you were going to try mandatory voting, is should be done as an experiment in one or two states. The Constitution pretty much leaves how elections are conducted to the states anywhere, so they should be the laboratory for it...and the practical and legal issues could be worked out there. Though again, it's hard for me to see this happening any time soon.

You hear a lot of talk in some quarters (I'm not necessarily saying here) about how America should adopt various systems in other countries that appear to work, and if only that were to happen things would be better. Whether it's mandatory voting (Australia), a prohibition on private gun ownership (ibid & the UK), health care (Canada or the UK or NZ), economic system (Scandinavia), political system (European parliamentary) or limits on "hate speech" (Germany).

Except the US is significantly larger and more diverse than all those countries, in terms of both population and economy. America's cultural and legal traditions are different, and simply transplanting what works in x country isn't necessarily going to work in the US. To say nothing about the fact that all those countries and systems have their own issues. Obama knew this with health care reform, HRC knew it when she went after Bernie's love of Scandinavian style socialism. American problems require uniquely American solutions (though you can certainly look to other countries for ideas).

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The majority of states already have early voting AND absentee voting. Some states are mail-in only voting. It has not moved the needle as I said.

I don't think that the disengaged care enough to vote regardless of the day or time. And I agree with you that they would be LESS likely to vote on a Saturday.

The only thing I can think of would be internet voting via app or something, the way you do for shareholder meetings but that is rife with problems. First you'd need to get your package with the voter access number in the mail on time (many people move, addresses on file are not updated, voters aren't registered in advance, mail delivery issues), then you'd have to make sure the voting isn't fraudulent, that there is no hacking, double voting, etc. I don't see it as realistic that we're there yet with technology and I also worry that people would see such elections as illegitimate.
I know a lot of places already do it, and think in some states mail in voting has had an impact. Though on the whole I agree with you, the problem is apathy, not convenience (a census bureau study a while back seems to confirm this).

And I agree that we are a long way off from any kind of internet voting that would be secure enough to satisfy everyone.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:11 AM   #787
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This is hilarious and terrifying at the same time, as it just confirms everything that we already know... that the president of the United States is your old drunk uncle yelling at Fox News (and not actually doing any work)

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During his morning Executive Time, President Trump took a well-deserved break from his long hours of document study to watch Fox News. The segment featured one of the talking heads urging Trump to oppose the House bill reauthorizing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). The president immediately tweeted out his alarmed confusion that the House was apparently on the verge of approving the very law the sinister Deep State had used to “tapp” his phones:

Tweet from @realDonaldTrump: “House votes on controversial FISA ACT today.” This is the act that may have been used, with the help of the discredited and phony Dossier, to so badly surveil and abuse the Trump Campaign by the previous administration and others?


Why, yes, it is that bill. Ideally, Trump would be posing questions like this to his own advisers, rather than to the entire world. The president’s alarm was unfortunate, since the Trump administration strongly supports reauthorization of this law. It has sent its highest-ranking security officials to lobby Congress for reauthorization, and reiterated its endorsement of the law as recently as last night.

The source of Trump’s confusion may be that he has taken seriously the Republican talking points about the Deep State, failing to realize that it’s disingenuous propaganda designed to cover up misdeeds by his campaign. Republicans don’t actually object to the counterintelligence functions of the government as a whole. They merely want to discredit their specific application to the Trump campaign’s collusion with Russia. They don’t want the president blowing up the bill right before the vote they labored carefully to assemble.

What’s more, the Executive Time snafu comes at a delicate moment in his presidency. The news media has turned its attention to the question of Trump’s mental capacity. Trump staged a meeting with Congress to discuss immigration policy. Other than an unfortunate moment where he endorsed a Democratic proposal that’s totally at odds with his own putative stance and completely unacceptable to his party, Trump completed the occasion without further embarrassment. The conservative media proclaimed the event proof of the president’s absolute mastery.

“It was a brilliantly conceived and flawlessly executed rebuttal to this stupid Wolff book,” concludes Rush Limbaugh. “[Trump]’s in total command of over 45 minutes of televised meeting on immigration. He is totally informed on the issues.” Wall Street Journal columnist Daniel Henninger coos, “Mr. Trump presided over this meeting like some previously undiscovered Buddha. He talked but didn’t dominate. He methodically elicited views from Republicans (among them Lindsey Graham, Kevin McCarthy, David Perdue, and Carlos Curbelo ) and Democrats … a grudging consensus formed that Mr. Trump had confounded critics of his basic competence.”

As impressive as it may have been for Trump to sit upright and participate in a discussion of public policy while only subverting his administration’s position one time, an immediate Executive Time relapse has revealed that Trump does not understand his own administration’s policy.

Update: Apparently somebody has explained the administration’s position to the president, who has followed up his old tweet opposing the House bill with a new one supporting it:

Tweet from @realDonaldTrump: With that being said, I have personally directed the fix to the unmasking process since taking office and today’s vote is about foreign surveillance of foreign bad guys on foreign land. We need it! Get smart!

“Get smart!” is an especially apt coda.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:19 AM   #788
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This is hilarious and terrifying at the same time, as it just confirms everything that we already know... that the president of the United States is your old drunk uncle yelling at Fox News (and not actually doing any work)
Yeah. That's definitely all confirmed now. Glad we got confirmation of that. Because we just weren't sure. But now? Confirmed.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:42 AM   #789
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Yeah. That's definitely all confirmed now. Glad we got confirmation of that. Because we just weren't sure. But now? Confirmed.
Glad to see you're confirming something else
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:25 PM   #790
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What did I miss
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:36 PM   #791
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What did I miss
Trump Tweeted something stupid.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:56 PM   #792
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So I didn't miss anything?
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:16 PM   #793
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Nothing you can't catch when it happens again tomorrow.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:19 PM   #794
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Go to voting reform with ending gerrymandering and destroy the winner-take-all model of electorates in states before we even begin to debate compulsory voting.

speaking of which, this is too fun not to share:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.4c60e8fbbc78


WHERE IS THE LIE?
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:59 PM   #795
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What did I miss


Trump proved he’s s stable genius, yet again.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:23 PM   #796
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speaking of which, this is too fun not to share:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.4c60e8fbbc78


WHERE IS THE LIE?
Because we are always FAIR AND BALANCED here in the FYM ECHO CHAMBER...

Here is Maryland district 3, where the Democrats hold office...

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Old 01-11-2018, 04:32 PM   #797
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TBH I knew gerrymandering was bad but I never knew it was that bad.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:48 PM   #798
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hope it's okay with nick to post something stupid the president said.

Quote:
President Trump grew frustrated with lawmakers Thursday in the Oval Office when they floated restoring protections for immigrants from Haiti, El Salvador and African countries as part of a bipartisan immigration deal, according to two people briefed on the meeting.

“Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” Trump said, according to these people, referring to African countries and Haiti. He then suggested that the United States should instead bring more people from countries like Norway, whose prime minister he met yesterday.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:57 PM   #799
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hope it's okay with nick to post something stupid the president said.


Don’t you remember our historian friend? Only white societies have contributed to civilization throughout our history, so Trump is just looking to make America great again, that’s all.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:12 PM   #800
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soon, Trump will make the US is a shithole country too! then no one will want to immigrate here.
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