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Old 01-10-2018, 09:57 AM   #721
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This is the future Gzusfrk wants.

https://newrepublic.com/article/1465...xpayer-dollars
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:03 AM   #722
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Agreed. Business can't be trusted. They have always been for themselves first, always will.

Who can be trusted, though, Phils?

I can't think of many strong groups I could trust with national issues, really.
To this point? No one. The world right now is pay-to-play. At least there are some mechanisms for fighting back against it via the government. Let's start there. How about fighting voter suppression? Make gerrymandering illegal, increase access to voter registration, make election days holidays. Baby steps.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:37 AM   #723
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If people don't like what they are psid, they are free to pursue other jobs/companies. No matter how much you want to, you can't FORCE companies to pay their employees more money. They will lose good talent if they don't pay. Especially if government subsidies weren't so incredibly easy to get.

The government doesn't exist to fix everything for you. Constitutionally, the federal government should exist only to protect the freedoms of its people. If you're angry about what Amazon pays it's employees, don't work there, and don't use their products
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:40 AM   #724
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But the truth is, more regulation will have to occur to fix rather than less, and that is a reality that Republicans will have to face.

Healthcare isn’t like selling coffee or cars. For example the old Republican argument of selling insurance across state lines, it will not work in the current model. Each state defines each area of practice differently, if you go in for ankle surgery you’d be able to use a podiatrist in TX but you would have to use an orthopedic surgeon in New Jersey, hence why you can’t write plans that work across state lines. Unless of course you regulate, but we all know you think that’s a bad word.

I know healthcare and business, your way of thinking is ancient and will never be the future of healthcare in this country. It’s just not sustainable.
Well some smart people better come up with something, because rising premiums and deductibles aren't sustainable either
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:48 AM   #725
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If people don't like what they are psid, they are free to pursue other jobs/companies. No matter how much you want to, you can't FORCE companies to pay their employees more money. They will lose good talent if they don't pay. Especially if government subsidies weren't so incredibly easy to get.



The government doesn't exist to fix everything for you. Constitutionally, the federal government should exist only to protect the freedoms of its people. If you're angry about what Amazon pays it's employees, don't work there, and don't use their products


This goes to what headache was talking about; these jobs are not valued as talent, so Amazon isn’t losing a thing. These are jobs that will be replaced by automation very soon, and we’ll have a burden on our hands that no one is prepared for, and no amount of personal responsibility will be able to change that.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:57 AM   #726
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Well some smart people better come up with something, because rising premiums and deductibles aren't sustainable either


Some smart people made the first step. The solution will reside in a hybrid single payer and private free market approach. A sudden step into single payer would have collapsed this country, and a 100% single payer or free market solution will have us continuing down this downward spiral.

The ACA was a great first step, but you all had to ruin that as well.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:58 AM   #727
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This isn't a right or left issue. It's reality.

Automation is here, and it isn't going anywhere. Minimum wage type jobs are feeling the crunch now, and bigger jobs will feel it in the coming decades.

If your job can be replaced by a machine, it will be.

So what then? What personal responsibility can be taken when the jobs literally don't exist anymore, and there aren't enough jobs to go around?
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:12 AM   #728
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Look we just have to agree to disagree. They tried $15 an hour min wage in Seattle, jobs were lost, there's a story today about Red Robin laying off busboys because of $15 min wage. The only way it would increase employment is because it's turning 50 full time jobs into 100 part time jobs.



And as far as Obamacare, being forced to buy something does not create competition. And the only people who benefited from Obamacare were the ones who didn't have to pay. Everyone else's health costs (like mine) went way up.



Obamacare is the reason why I have healthcare through my employer. I work in an industry filled with freelancers, and for years I bought my healthcare on the open market. My premiums literally doubled over 5 years. Because of Obamacare, the company I work for was forced to figure out a way to provide its employees with health care, and lo and behold, they did. I get great care.

You’re also avoiding the deliberate sabotaging of the law by the GOP. And yet, it’s more popular than ever and more Americans have health care now than at any other time in history.

It must be improved, but this free market fantasy about competition is just garbage. People don’t shop around for kidney transplants, nor when I was in a freak accident (while exercising and being healthy, you know, “taking responsibility”) did I stop and tell the ambulance to go to a cheaper hospital. Health care insurance exists as a corrective to a marketplace that doesn’t operate under the same rules of supply and demand that govern, say, tennis shoes.

Single payer is the way to go. And Obamacare is several steps in the right direction.

When I read your posts, it’s not that I disagree with them so much but that I’m a little saddened at your hardness towards other people, other Americans. Sure, some people cheat the system, but not as many as you think, and it’s fractions of pennies compared to grotesque wealth inequality or, say, what could have been paid for (universal community college) by this most recent tax cut.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:15 AM   #729
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This goes to what headache was talking about; these jobs are not valued as talent, so Amazon isn’t losing a thing. These are jobs that will be replaced by automation very soon, and we’ll have a burden on our hands that no one is prepared for, and no amount of personal responsibility will be able to change that.
I agree with that, so we need to be proactive. If this was my kid, I would give them some ideas. Now part of the problem, is that there are higher paying jobs out there, but many don't want to put the work in required to be good at it.

Take call center jobs. Many in my area START at $13-15 an hour for customer service or collections. But many people don't want to do it because it's hard work! They don't like it!

There are factory/manufacturing jobs available, but many times you'd have to start on third or second shift, pay your dues, and work your way up! Many don't want to work third shirt.

Some friends have kids in their late teens or early twenties who are Managers at fast food places. Why? They busted their ass and worked their way up when others did the bare minimum.

These are some of the reasons why I question when someone says "this person has been making minimum wage for five years, it's obscene "!

There are many ways to earn more money, but many just don't want to put forth the effort required to do it.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:21 AM   #730
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Obamacare is the reason why I have healthcare through my employer. I work in an industry filled with freelancers, and for years I bought my healthcare on the open market. My premiums literally doubled over 5 years. Because if Obamacare, the company I work for was forced to figure out a way to provide its employees with health care, and lo and behold, they did. I get great care.

You’re also avoiding the deliberate sabotaging of the law by the GOP. And yet, it’s more popular than ever and more Americans have health care now than at any other time in history.

It must be improved, but this free market fantasy about competition is just garbage. People don’t shop around for kidney transplants, nor when I was in a freak accident (while exercising and being healthy, you know, “taking responsibility”) did I stop and tell the ambulance to go to a cheaper hospital. Health care insurance exists as a corrective to a marketplace that doesn’t operate under the same rules of supply and demand that govern, say, tennis shoes.

Single payer is the way to go. And Obamacare is several steps in the right direction.

When I read your posts, it’s not that I disagree with them so much but that I’m a little saddened at your hardness towards other people, other Americans. Sure, some people cheat the system, but not as many as you think, and it’s fractions of pennies compared to grotesque wealth inequality or, say, what could have been paid for (universal community college) by this most recent tax cut.
With all due respect Irvine, you like it because it benefits you. Others have to pay more because of that though.

And again, not meaning to be cruel, just completely objective. Why should I or anyone else be forced to pay for someone else's healthcare? I have three kids, so I pay for their healthcare, my own, and then whoever else's because my premiums and deductible are do high.

It used to be whether you chose to do freelance work, or worked for a company that provided healthcare, it was affordable. But now, it's a complete mess, and all I know is that the cost for me keeps going up, and I have to use it less and less.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:31 AM   #731
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With all due respect Irvine, you like it because it benefits you. Others have to pay more because of that though.



And again, not meaning to be cruel, just completely objective. Why should I or anyone else be forced to pay for someone else's healthcare? I have three kids, so I pay for their healthcare, my own, and then whoever else's because my premiums and deductible are do high.



It used to be whether you chose to do freelance work, or worked for a company that provided healthcare, it was affordable. But now, it's a complete mess, and all I know is that the cost for me keeps going up, and I have to use it less and less.


Of course I like it because it benefits me. That’s why it’s good policy. It benefits far more people than not, and healthcare costs have been going up not because of Obamacare but because health care costs have been going up. My premium doubling happened during W’s second term, so to not like Obama had anything to do with this.

Also, OF COURSE you’re paying for someone else’s care, and one day when you need it, someone will pay for your care. That’s how insurance pools work, and that’s why the young and healthy have to pay for the sick and old, because they one day will be sick and old (or really unlucky, as in my case). I barely drive, but since we have a car we have to have insurance, should I be upset that the insurance I pay on the car I barely drive goes to bail out bad drivers? Shouldn’t you be more upset at people without insurance showing up at the ER because they have the flu? Wouldn’t universal care with an emphasis on preventative care result in a healthier population with lower overall costs?

This “complete mess” could be improved dramatically by Single Payer health care.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:35 AM   #732
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I agree with that, so we need to be proactive. If this was my kid, I would give them some ideas. Now part of the problem, is that there are higher paying jobs out there, but many don't want to put the work in required to be good at it.

Take call center jobs. Many in my area START at $13-15 an hour for customer service or collections. But many people don't want to do it because it's hard work! They don't like it!

There are factory/manufacturing jobs available, but many times you'd have to start on third or second shift, pay your dues, and work your way up! Many don't want to work third shirt.

Some friends have kids in their late teens or early twenties who are Managers at fast food places. Why? They busted their ass and worked their way up when others did the bare minimum.

These are some of the reasons why I question when someone says "this person has been making minimum wage for five years, it's obscene "!

There are many ways to earn more money, but many just don't want to put forth the effort required to do it.

This is a fairly simpleton view. This theory allows you to sleep at night and I get that, but it's not reality.

Not everyone struggling is lazy. There are many willing to put forth the effort required but don't have the means or opportunity. To believe there's a higher paying job available right now for everyone in this country is obscene and naive.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:38 AM   #733
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This isn't a right or left issue. It's reality.

Automation is here, and it isn't going anywhere. Minimum wage type jobs are feeling the crunch now, and bigger jobs will feel it in the coming decades.

If your job can be replaced by a machine, it will be.

So what then? What personal responsibility can be taken when the jobs literally don't exist anymore, and there aren't enough jobs to go around?
Good question! Maybe we will all have to go back to being farmers or pushing a fruit cart!
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #734
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And again, not meaning to be cruel, just completely objective. Why should I or anyone else be forced to pay for someone else's healthcare?
Simple answer; because it's more expensive not to.

This whole notion that you're paying for other people's healthcare is ridiculous. You couldn't afford healthcare if we went to a completely out of pocket system, most couldn't, but if you want your children living in a world of shorter life expectancy then be my guess. Just tell them you were able to save a little more each month and "personal responsibility", I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #735
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Of course I like it because it benefits me. That’s why it’s good policy. It benefits far more people than not, and healthcare costs have been going up not because of Obamacare but because health care costs have been going up. My premium doubling happened during W’s second term, so to not like Obama had anything to do with this.

Also, OF COURSE you’re paying for someone else’s care, and one day when you need it, someone will pay for your care. That’s how insurance pools work, and that’s why the young and healthy have to pay for the sick and old, because they one day will be sick and old (or really unlucky, as in my case). I barely drive, but since we have a car we have to have insurance, should I be upset that the insurance I pay on the car I barely drive goes to bail out bad drivers? Shouldn’t you be more upset at people without insurance showing up at the ER because they have the flu? Wouldn’t universal care with an emphasis on preventative care result in a healthier population with lower overall costs?

This “complete mess” could be improved dramatically by Single Payer health care.
Yes, good points! I now have a copay for ER visits, never thought id see that! But u see, I'm not so sure it benefits most people. If, God forbid, I had a major illness or accident, I'm gonna owe $5000 upfront, and no one is going to pay that for me. Granted, it's not $20000, but it's a lot to me, especially when I'm paying thousands in premiums as well.

I am a very generous person, and I love to help people who truly need assistance. Many hospitals operate on donations already. Even before Obamacare, no one was turned away at the ER, many forget that.

I understand how insurance works. But the government has yet to give free car insurance, and force others to shoulder that cost.

It's a very complicated issue with no easy soundbite answers. I've learned a lot. Great discussion!!
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #736
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Good question! Maybe we will all have to go back to being farmers or pushing a fruit cart!
Those are both already being automated.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:48 AM   #737
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Simple answer; because it's more expensive not to.

This whole notion that you're paying for other people's healthcare is ridiculous. You couldn't afford healthcare if we went to a completely out of pocket system, most couldn't, but if you want your children living in a world of shorter life expectancy then be my guess. Just tell them you were able to save a little more each month and "personal responsibility", I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
Well obviously we disagree on this point, which is fine. The problem is when no responsibility is given to some, and additional responsibility is given to others, it gives no incentive for the first group to improve their circumstances. Many will out of their own hard work and determination, but unfortunately, many won't unless nudged a bit
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:57 AM   #738
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Yes, good points! I now have a copay for ER visits, never thought id see that! But u see, I'm not so sure it benefits most people. If, God forbid, I had a major illness or accident, I'm gonna owe $5000 upfront, and no one is going to pay that for me. Granted, it's not $20000, but it's a lot to me, especially when I'm paying thousands in premiums as well.



I am a very generous person, and I love to help people who truly need assistance. Many hospitals operate on donations already. Even before Obamacare, no one was turned away at the ER, many forget that.



I understand how insurance works. But the government has yet to give free car insurance, and force others to shoulder that cost.



It's a very complicated issue with no easy soundbite answers. I've learned a lot. Great discussion!!



I will say that I really appreciate your tone and civility, and I am sorry if I’ve come off too strong at any point. I know it isn’t easy to be the lone voice responding to many voices.

I also think you and your family are exactly the kinds of people who would benefit most from single payer health care. I really do. That’s a guess, but it’s also my sense.

My hospital bill from a week in the ICU was in the thousands, but the low thousands, and I paid every bit of it. It was a lot for me at the time, but thank goodness I had insurance because the real cost would have been crippling.
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:59 AM   #739
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I don't tend to see automation as such a large problem as some of you do. Automation has been happening in some form or another since the 1700s, and rather than the world economy collapsing on that account, it has grown exponentially. What is needed is affordable training and education toward designing and managing that automation. Statistically (if I'm not mistaken) tech creates more jobs than it destroys; it's just that you hear from those on the losing end of creative destruction a lot more loudly than those on the winning end.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:12 PM   #740
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What is needed is affordable training and education toward designing and managing that automation.
This is going to be a big part of the solution.
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