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Old 01-09-2018, 08:28 PM   #701
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We've created a monster


Yep
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:49 PM   #702
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Actually, for individuals, I believe it's for eight years, then it's up for review. Believe me i know, because that's me !!
Yep, 2025 seems to be the year of increase for individuals, the majority of American taxpayers, unless and until those rates are extended by Congress.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:26 PM   #703
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Yep, 2025 seems to be the year of increase for individuals, the majority of American taxpayers, unless and until those rates are extended by Congress.


Yes, on paper. Tax cuts are great aren’t they? Why do politicians only make them for their terms, why not actual tax REFORM? Answer is pretty simple, right? But Diemen is correct, the shine will only last a short while, he’s hoping till the midterms, but healthcare costs are already going up due to his petty issues, and we’ll have a wall, lawyer fees, and possibly a war to pay for. So don’t be so naive to think this is something that will last, we have an a.d.d. society. A petty tax cut will be forgotten in a year.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:01 PM   #704
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Really? Show us some facts showing it's wrong.



It's Economics 101.



Let me guess, income redistribution is your plan??


https://www.theatlantic.com/business...utm_source=twb

The actual economy is way more complex than Economics 101. There's disagreement as to whether the minimum wage actually increases unemployment. And I'm willing to sacrifice some job growth if it means that workers aren't paid poverty wages. Also you're literally the person in this tweet: Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9558.JPG
Views:	22
Size:	84.9 KB
ID:	11742
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:10 PM   #705
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This statement is PATENTLY false. There are huge numbers of people "swimmingly on government assistance". I have had multiple people try to teach me how to game the system, and live quite well. I see it, I live next door to it.



And again, if someone who is single, married, has kids, etc. can't live on $15 an hour is not the issue. Everyone makes choices, and I made mine, and I bit off more than I could chew when I had my kids, so I have had to struggle to make ends meet. But that's nobody's responsibility but my own. I am doing a little better now, because I've worked my ass off to do it. But nobody OWES me anything.



No one is OWED anything by the government, or by anyone. That's what I'm teaching my kids. I know it's not a popular concept anymore, but personal responsibility for our own lives and choices should be focused on more these days, not what we can get for free, or by using "other people's money".



I would like to keep more of the money I make, and use it for charity to those who truly need assistance, rather than have the government disseminate it for me. I'm sure that's not a popular opinion around here, but we can agree to disagree.

The majority of people on welfare work. And by saying that because you worked hard that's why you're not poor only shows that you're completely blind to what causes poverty in America:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffp...05db4d1364/amp

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.3c08091520e2
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:16 PM   #706
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The only reason why I think the feds getting out of healthcare is basically because of competition. Competition in the marketplace drives prices down, and quality up, for pretty much any product or service. IMHO, healthcare premiums and cost of care would go down in this scenario. Now "big pharma", that is such a corrupted beast, smarter people than me have to tackle that one, that is SUCH a mess!


We have health care competition in the US and guess what? We have the highest health care costs in the developed world and the worst outcomes. Every other developed country spends less on healthcare and has better outcomes. And all of them have some form of nationalized healthcare.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:56 PM   #707
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https://www.theatlantic.com/business...utm_source=twb

The actual economy is way more complex than Economics 101. There's disagreement as to whether the minimum wage actually increases unemployment. And I'm willing to sacrifice some job growth if it means that workers aren't paid poverty wages. Also you're literally the person in this tweet: Attachment 11742
First you say it's more complicated, then you say I'm the person in a tweet. I come from a business environment. If you think the magic pill of $15 minimum wage wouldn't trigger layoffs or major hours cut, and costs being passed on to the consumer, then you're just uninformed
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:58 PM   #708
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We have health care competition in the US and guess what? We have the highest health care costs in the developed world and the worst outcomes. Every other developed country spends less on healthcare and has better outcomes. And all of them have some form of nationalized healthcare.
We have the worst outcomes? Seriously? Now I know you're trolling. And Obamacare took out the competition model when it FORCED people to buy health insurance. Thankfully, that mandate is now gone
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:36 AM   #709
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First you say it's more complicated, then you say I'm the person in a tweet. I come from a business environment. If you think the magic pill of $15 minimum wage wouldn't trigger layoffs or major hours cut, and costs being passed on to the consumer, then you're just uninformed


Except that multiple studies have shown that what you say will happen doesn't actually happen. And the studies that do show that the minimum wage reduces jobs show that those impacts are often outweighed by a variety of other factors and that job losses from the minimum wage increases are minimal.

Not to mention that real world results over the past few years have shown that minimum wage increases don't cause job losses. In my state we raised the minimum wage and we have almost full employment. We hit a record low for unemployment last year after a large minimum wage increase.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:39 AM   #710
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We have the worst outcomes? Seriously? Now I know you're trolling. And Obamacare took out the competition model when it FORCED people to buy health insurance. Thankfully, that mandate is now gone


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...rticle/533634/

It's a fact that the US has the worst health outcomes.

...can you explain how forcing people to buy health insurance (thus forcing them to participate in a market), isn't a competition model? Obamacare was the market solution for healthcare. It was the conservative plan for health care in the 90s.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:49 AM   #711
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...rticle/533634/

It's a fact that the US has the worst health outcomes.

...can you explain how forcing people to buy health insurance (thus forcing them to participate in a market), isn't a competition model? Obamacare was the market solution for healthcare. It was the conservative plan for health care in the 90s.
Look we just have to agree to disagree. They tried $15 an hour min wage in Seattle, jobs were lost, there's a story today about Red Robin laying off busboys because of $15 min wage. The only way it would increase employment is because it's turning 50 full time jobs into 100 part time jobs.

And as far as Obamacare, being forced to buy something does not create competition. And the only people who benefited from Obamacare were the ones who didn't have to pay. Everyone else's health costs (like mine) went way up.
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Old 01-10-2018, 06:26 AM   #712
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We have the worst outcomes? Seriously? Now I know you're trolling. And Obamacare took out the competition model when it FORCED people to buy health insurance. Thankfully, that mandate is now gone


Took out the competition model? Do you know what you’re talking about?

Rates are already going up since the mandate has been removed, as I said my employer has just done a major change due to increases.

Have you ever been rear ended by an uninsured driver? Super cheap, right?
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:03 AM   #713
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Took out the competition model? Do you know what you’re talking about?

Rates are already going up since the mandate has been removed, as I said my employer has just done a major change due to increases.

Have you ever been rear ended by an uninsured driver? Super cheap, right?
Yes, what I mean is this, the individual mandate forced people to buy insurance or pay a penalty. If you're in sales, it tips the scales when you know the customer HAS to buy you're product from somebody. Then, Obama FORCED the insurance companies not to drop people, again, putting his thumb on the scale. These things messed up any healthy competition model, and of course businesses and insurance companies freaked out and costs skyrocketed
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:25 AM   #714
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Except people weren’t buying insurance. Especially young people.

So the pool of insured was filling up with people who were racking up claims and making premiums skyrocket.

We needed more people, especially the healthy (usually the younglings) to drive down premiums.

Unfortunately our insurance market is profit driven so the companies still found ways to increase premiums.

That and our country is really fat
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:34 AM   #715
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Yes, what I mean is this, the individual mandate forced people to buy insurance or pay a penalty. If you're in sales, it tips the scales when you know the customer HAS to buy you're product from somebody. Then, Obama FORCED the insurance companies not to drop people, again, putting his thumb on the scale. These things messed up any healthy competition model, and of course businesses and insurance companies freaked out and costs skyrocketed


So you want to go back to the model where you pay slightly less for a product that can drop you when you need it the most?

Smart!

But at least you save a few bucks.

This is why Republicans haven’t come up with a plan. They don’t fucking get it, they don’t understand healthcare at all.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:38 AM   #716
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This is why Republicans haven’t come up with a plan. They don’t fucking get it, they don’t understand healthcare at all.
I think plenty of them understand it just fine. They just prefer to use it as a political weapon instead of an instrument of sound policy.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:47 AM   #717
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Except people weren’t buying insurance. Especially young people.

So the pool of insured was filling up with people who were racking up claims and making premiums skyrocket.

We needed more people, especially the healthy (usually the younglings) to drive down premiums.

Unfortunately our insurance market is profit driven so the companies still found ways to increase premiums.

That and our country is really fat
That was the problem with the ACA though...it doubled down on an antiquated, post-war era, employer based model of health care. Americans just take it as a given now that your health care is tied to your job, which is insane.

The ACA bought into a flawed system and those flaws are simply being magnified. Employer provided health insurance should be supplemental, it should not be something a nation's entire health care system is based on.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:50 AM   #718
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So you want to go back to the model where you pay slightly less for a product that can drop you when you need it the most?

Smart!

But at least you save a few bucks.

This is why Republicans haven’t come up with a plan. They don’t fucking get it, they don’t understand healthcare at all.
This we agree on. As I said earlier, the Republican plan is not much better than Obamacare. There's a reason why our Founding Fathers wanted to keep the central Federal Government small, because the more things it gets involved in, the more it screws up. And yes, I think forcing people to buy health insurance was unconstitutional, and that the President overreaching in the public sector by mandating that insurance companies don't drop people was illegal.

You know more about the healthcare industry BVS, I give you that, but I know business, sales, and the market. And it's a huge mess we're in, and the more the Feds get involved in anything, the worse it gets.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:59 AM   #719
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The $15 minimum wage won't work.

It won't work not because it isn't the right thing to do, it because all CEOs are inherently evil, it because boomers are pissed that millennials take all the avocados.

It won't work because the majority of the jobs that will be impacted are jobs that are about to be replaced by automation anyways, do it gives businesses the incentive to just pull off the band-aid.

The issue we need to be focused on is how to sustain employment for the masses in the face of automation.

And it needs to be figured out really fucking fast, because if it isn't figured out when the trucking industry becomes automated, we're going to face an unemployment costs that will make the Great Depression look like a sunny day.
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:10 AM   #720
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This we agree on. As I said earlier, the Republican plan is not much better than Obamacare. There's a reason why our Founding Fathers wanted to keep the central Federal Government small, because the more things it gets involved in, the more it screws up. And yes, I think forcing people to buy health insurance was unconstitutional, and that the President overreaching in the public sector by mandating that insurance companies don't drop people was illegal.



You know more about the healthcare industry BVS, I give you that, but I know business, sales, and the market. And it's a huge mess we're in, and the more the Feds get involved in anything, the worse it gets.


But the truth is, more regulation will have to occur to fix rather than less, and that is a reality that Republicans will have to face.

Healthcare isn’t like selling coffee or cars. For example the old Republican argument of selling insurance across state lines, it will not work in the current model. Each state defines each area of practice differently, if you go in for ankle surgery you’d be able to use a podiatrist in TX but you would have to use an orthopedic surgeon in New Jersey, hence why you can’t write plans that work across state lines. Unless of course you regulate, but we all know you think that’s a bad word.

I know healthcare and business, your way of thinking is ancient and will never be the future of healthcare in this country. It’s just not sustainable.
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