US Politics V - now with 20% more echo chamber - Page 35 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-09-2018, 07:06 PM   #681
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,170
Local Time: 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
A lot of large companies that just saw big tax cuts just laid off more employees. Businesses cannot be trusted.
And who didn't know that was the way it was going to go? It's all a farce.
__________________

MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:09 PM   #682
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Gzus, do you not believe that the min wage should at least be adjusted for inflation?
__________________

BVS is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:18 PM   #683
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,963
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
And the irony of those preaching ‘everything is personal responsibility’, bitching that immigrants took their jobs and how exciting they are to go back in the coal mines is not lost. You can’t preach ‘personal responsibility’, when your guy won due to a bunch of whining people who couldn’t adapt.
did nobody read the article i posted yesterday that blew this notion up completely? it was the suburbanites making $50k+ that swung it for trump, not the bitter redneck sitting around doing nothing since the coal mine closed. those people voted for clinton, and it wasn't even that close.

let me tell you a little story about what happens when you legislate a minimum wage increase. here in ontario the provincial government passed a law in the fall raising the min wage from $11.50 to $14.00 as of jan 1, with a further rise to $15.00 next january. seems like a great idea in an election year right? the workers are happy and the government cruises to reelection. what's really ended up happening though is that the workers are getting crushed. most businesses have responded to this by cutting hours, laying people off, forcing minimum wage employees to pay for their own health benefits where before they had them free or subsidized, and in some cases just outright closing down and putting everyone out of a job. almost every night there's a local business in the news because they actually have decided to go along with the raise and not fuck over their employees, because they're the exception. my girlfriend manages a fast casual restaurant that already had their labour cut to the bone, and now they have orders from corporate to cut hours even further. she absolutely hates it - these people are friends of hers that are going to really struggle with less hours or having to find another job to make up for the cut. but she has no choice, if she doesn't do what her bosses says she'll be let go and they'll just find someone else who will have no problems making those cuts. and it's not like many of these companies can't really afford to pay the cashier an extra 20 bucks a shift, they're using this as an opportunity to claw back those benefits and cut labour, and just using the min wage rise as a convenient excuse. the billionaire owners of several tim hortons franchises here in toronto blindsided their employees with this in a letter that whined about how the government is hurting business owners and that "regrettably" its all the government's fault that now part time employees making the bare minimum for a couple dozen hours a week need to pay hundreds a month to keep the health benefits they previously had for free or lose it entirely and that they just have no choice - these fucking pigs people are billionaires and they're crying poor about having to pay their workers an extra $2.50. it's disgusting how badly the working poor are being fucked over by greedy rich opportunists.

what should have been a nice benefit to the poor and working class is turning out to be a total disaster for them.

minimum wage increases just end up benefiting the employer and gives them an excuse to screw the worker even more. what is really needed, and i can hardly believe this discussion has now gone several pages without it being mentioned once, is a universal basic income.
DaveC is online now  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:19 PM   #684
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 447
Local Time: 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Gzus, do you not believe that the min wage should at least be adjusted for inflation?
Well, IMHO, since the economy has been so sluggish in the last eight years, I'm sure that there should be an adjustment, but how much I'm not sure. My guess would be a "wait and see" how the economy continues to respond this year. The tax cut is a good start because everyone, not just the rich, will see more money in their checks, but health care is the wildcard. I wish the feds would get out of healthcare completely, they've screwed it up so badly, and the Republican plans don't sound much better.

Once the healthcare and deregulation settles in, then yes, I think the minimum wage should be adjusted, but my guess would be about a dollar or so.

Again, I know that business isn't all "warm and fuzzy", if we went full on $15 an hour, they will cut jobs and pass the cost on to the consumer for sure.
Gzusfrk is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:27 PM   #685
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,575
Local Time: 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
and it's not like many of these companies can't really afford to pay the cashier an extra 20 bucks a shift, they're using this as an opportunity to claw back those benefits and cut labour, and just using the min wage rise as a convenient excuse.
I guess it's probably not quite the same in Canada bc of your more expansive national benefits system, but my main worry about minimum wage hikes in the US is less full-time employment, which will allow employers to dump healthcare, retirement, and other benefits packages. Those losses can be enormously costly for people, much more so than the related gains of a few more bucks per hour.

But ultimately the issue is timing and a rush to compensate for several years or even decades of stagnation in a single push. Of course $10 to $15 is going to be a shock to the system. Gradual increases based on real terms over the years would have been much more viable.
iron yuppie is online now  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:33 PM   #686
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
Well, IMHO, since the economy has been so sluggish in the last eight years, I'm sure that there should be an adjustment, but how much I'm not sure. My guess would be a "wait and see" how the economy continues to respond this year. The tax cut is a good start because everyone, not just the rich, will see more money in their checks, but health care is the wildcard. I wish the feds would get out of healthcare completely, they've screwed it up so badly, and the Republican plans don't sound much better.



Once the healthcare and deregulation settles in, then yes, I think the minimum wage should be adjusted, but my guess would be about a dollar or so.



Again, I know that business isn't all "warm and fuzzy", if we went full on $15 an hour, they will cut jobs and pass the cost on to the consumer for sure.


Oh, I agree 15$ would wreck our economy, but that’s due partly on the fact that it hasn’t been adjusted along the way.

Deregulating health care is not the way this country needs to go. Oh, I know it’s easy to fall for all the stories, but as someone who was an insider into the industry, we’re taking huge steps backwards by letting this current administration of clowns even touch health care.
BVS is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:37 PM   #687
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
did nobody read the article i posted yesterday that blew this notion up completely? it was the suburbanites making $50k+ that swung it for trump, not the bitter redneck sitting around doing nothing since the coal mine closed. those people voted for clinton, and it wasn't even that close.

let me tell you a little story about what happens when you legislate a minimum wage increase. here in ontario the provincial government passed a law in the fall raising the min wage from $11.50 to $14.00 as of jan 1, with a further rise to $15.00 next january. seems like a great idea in an election year right? the workers are happy and the government cruises to reelection. what's really ended up happening though is that the workers are getting crushed. most businesses have responded to this by cutting hours, laying people off, forcing minimum wage employees to pay for their own health benefits where before they had them free or subsidized, and in some cases just outright closing down and putting everyone out of a job. almost every night there's a local business in the news because they actually have decided to go along with the raise and not fuck over their employees, because they're the exception. my girlfriend manages a fast casual restaurant that already had their labour cut to the bone, and now they have orders from corporate to cut hours even further. she absolutely hates it - these people are friends of hers that are going to really struggle with less hours or having to find another job to make up for the cut. but she has no choice, if she doesn't do what her bosses says she'll be let go and they'll just find someone else who will have no problems making those cuts. and it's not like many of these companies can't really afford to pay the cashier an extra 20 bucks a shift, they're using this as an opportunity to claw back those benefits and cut labour, and just using the min wage rise as a convenient excuse. the billionaire owners of several tim hortons franchises here in toronto blindsided their employees with this in a letter that whined about how the government is hurting business owners and that "regrettably" its all the government's fault that now part time employees making the bare minimum for a couple dozen hours a week need to pay hundreds a month to keep the health benefits they previously had for free or lose it entirely and that they just have no choice - these fucking pigs people are billionaires and they're crying poor about having to pay their workers an extra $2.50. it's disgusting how badly the working poor are being fucked over by greedy rich opportunists.

what should have been a nice benefit to the poor and working class is turning out to be a total disaster for them.

minimum wage increases just end up benefiting the employer and gives them an excuse to screw the worker even more. what is really needed, and i can hardly believe this discussion has now gone several pages without it being mentioned once, is a universal basic income.


I’m speaking to the perception of the Orangegropas and BobSaggetts.

But I would like to hear your views on universal basic income, because the one person that ever tried to speak about it in here was completely inept, so I’m genuinely interested in how you think it might work?
BVS is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:37 PM   #688
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,181
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
A lot of large companies that just saw big tax cuts just laid off more employees. Businesses cannot be trusted.
Agreed. Business can't be trusted. They have always been for themselves first, always will.

Who can be trusted, though, Phils?

I can't think of many strong groups I could trust with national issues, really.
Bluer White is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:37 PM   #689
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 447
Local Time: 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Oh, I agree 15$ would wreck our economy, but that’s due partly on the fact that it hasn’t been adjusted along the way.

Deregulating health care is not the way this country needs to go. Oh, I know it’s easy to fall for all the stories, but as someone who was an insider into the industry, we’re taking huge steps backwards by letting this current administration of clowns even touch health care.
I just wish healthcare premiums weren't so freakin' expensive, and with kids?? My deductible is so high, I'd have to get hit by a train, and LIVE, in order to see any benefit from it!
Gzusfrk is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:41 PM   #690
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,663
Local Time: 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
Well, IMHO, since the economy has been so sluggish in the last eight years,
Uhhh.. it's a little more than just the last 8 years that have made the minimum wage fall behind.

Quote:
The tax cut is a good start because everyone, not just the rich, will see more money in their checks,
Not really. Sure, for this upcoming year and maybe the following one, most Americans will see a benefit. After that, the majority of Americans will see their taxes increase, some significantly. Except of course the wealthiest Americans, who will reap the lion's share of the benefits now and going forward under this plan.
Diemen is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:44 PM   #691
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 447
Local Time: 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Uhhh.. it's a little more than just the last 8 years that have made the minimum wage fall behind.



Not really. Sure, for this upcoming year and maybe the following one, most Americans will see a benefit. After that, the majority of Americans will see their taxes increase, some significantly. Except of course the wealthiest Americans, who will reap the lion's share of the benefits now and going forward under this plan.
Actually, for individuals, I believe it's for eight years, then it's up for review. Believe me i know, because that's me !!
Gzusfrk is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:44 PM   #692
War Child
 
Iggy Fizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: A planet far, far away
Posts: 718
Local Time: 08:24 PM
My point (Headache and PhilsFan) is that the country is not getting more conservative, it is getting more liberal (thankfully).

I can agree with many aspects of the wealth distribution problem however the canned far-left wing response will no doubt lead to even worse outcomes.
Iggy Fizz is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:50 PM   #693
War Child
 
Iggy Fizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: A planet far, far away
Posts: 718
Local Time: 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
Using goverment aid for a tough time is what it's supposed to be for, a "safety net", not supposed to be a "safety hammock", meaning should never be so easy and comfortable that it becomes a lifestyle. This happens way too often these days. I am VERY familiar, TOO familiar in fact with being "the working poor". But having lower taxes puts more money in my check, and unfortunately Obamacare inflated the cost of insurance premiums and skyrocketed deductibles for many of us, so fixing that mess would put more money into our pockets as well.

As soon as you make minimum wage jobs $15 an hour, what does that do for jobs that are currently $15 an hour? An employer shouldn't be forced to pay a wage for a job that the market doesn't value at the same level. I'm sorry that that concept bothers you, but what else would encourage people to change industries, or work harder, work a different shift, etc. in order to make more money. I'm sorry, but people aren't entitled to "more money" just because their life is hard. The problem is that too many think they're "entitled" to a lot of things.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.49cca1c67ebf
Iggy Fizz is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:59 PM   #694
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,181
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Not really. Sure, for this upcoming year and maybe the following one, most Americans will see a benefit. After that, the majority of Americans will see their taxes increase, some significantly. Except of course the wealthiest Americans, who will reap the lion's share of the benefits now and going forward under this plan.
Not sure the Democratic party will have the political will to allow taxes to rise much on the majority of Americans. See the extension of many of the Bush-era tax cuts under President Obama's administration.
Bluer White is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:04 PM   #695
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post

minimum wage increases just end up benefiting the employer and gives them an excuse to screw the worker even more. what is really needed, and i can hardly believe this discussion has now gone several pages without it being mentioned once, is a universal basic income.
I am strictly opposed to a basic income and I have yet to hear a single proposal of it that makes any kind of fiscal sense on a national basis given current budgets and revenues.

This is a good article summarizing some of the issues and written from a perspective you may find unexpected since it was published in the Jacobin, which is fairly leftist:

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/unive...nequality-work
anitram is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:08 PM   #696
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
I just wish healthcare premiums weren't so freakin' expensive, and with kids?? My deductible is so high, I'd have to get hit by a train, and LIVE, in order to see any benefit from it!


Yeah we just changed providers because we would have seen a 17% hike, thanks Trump.

But I don’t understand how you think deregulation will help that?

We’re a nation that’s dealing with a baby boomer age who were vast and extremely unhealthy, someone has to help carry their burden. That’s just one of a dozen reasons healthcare costs are through the roof.

I used to rep a product that when introduced to the market was being sold at 25,000 a pop. Why? Because they could. Competitors came in and guess what? The price went up.

Government came in and did research on the r&d costs, distribution costs, etc. and set the Medicare cost at 2500, so the market followed. There were maybe 6 different manufacturers at the time, they all changed their price to a list of 6000 and insurance companies all agreed at 3000, just like that and not one has lost a cent. Healthcare unregulated does not follow those theories that look good on paper.
BVS is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:14 PM   #697
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 447
Local Time: 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Yeah we just changed providers because we would have seen a 17% hike, thanks Trump.

But I don’t understand how you think deregulation will help that?

We’re a nation that’s dealing with a baby boomer age who were vast and extremely unhealthy, someone has to help carry their burden. That’s just one of a dozen reasons healthcare costs are through the roof.

I used to rep a product that when introduced to the market was being sold at 25,000 a pop. Why? Because they could. Competitors came in and guess what? The price went up.

Government came in and did research on the r&d costs, distribution costs, etc. and set the Medicare cost at 2500, so the market followed. There were maybe 6 different manufacturers at the time, they all changed their price to a list of 6000 and insurance companies all agreed at 3000, just like that and not one has lost a cent. Healthcare unregulated does not follow those theories that look good on paper.
The only reason why I think the feds getting out of healthcare is basically because of competition. Competition in the marketplace drives prices down, and quality up, for pretty much any product or service. IMHO, healthcare premiums and cost of care would go down in this scenario. Now "big pharma", that is such a corrupted beast, smarter people than me have to tackle that one, that is SUCH a mess!
Gzusfrk is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:20 PM   #698
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,963
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
the Jacobin, which is fairly leftist
you don't say...

i just got home from work so will read the article later when i have a moment and share my thoughts. but before i've had a chance to read it my first thought is of course a UBI wouldn't work within current revenues and budgets, and they would have to change drastically. the article may thoroughly debunk this notion (again i haven't read it yet) but my (admittedly amateur) understanding is that one of the main points of the whole idea is to change the fundamentals of the current economic model and allow the lower class some room to grow again.
DaveC is online now  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:22 PM   #699
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzusfrk View Post
The only reason why I think the feds getting out of healthcare is basically because of competition. Competition in the marketplace drives prices down, and quality up, for pretty much any product or service. IMHO, healthcare premiums and cost of care would go down in this scenario. Now "big pharma", that is such a corrupted beast, smarter people than me have to tackle that one, that is SUCH a mess!


But like I said, that’s not the case with healthcare. Unless you want to go back to paying for healthcare by cash, that will never be the case. The competition get with the insurance and they set a price.

So honestly you have two choices; regulate or go back to paying 100% out of pocket.
BVS is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:23 PM   #700
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 447
Local Time: 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
But like I said, that’s not the case with healthcare. Unless you want to go back to paying for healthcare by cash, that will never be the case. The competition get with the insurance and they set a price.

So honestly you have two choices; regulate or go back to paying 100% out of pocket.
We've created a monster
__________________

Gzusfrk is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×