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Old 01-09-2018, 03:34 PM   #661
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Yeah, no.

My mom has worked in both office and retail jobs throughout her life. She has plenty of office experience, and when she worked retail, she was an assistant manager at some stores. She worked many different areas of retail, too, so she had a variety of experience. She didn't go to college after high school, but back when I was a little kid, i do remember her taking a few night classes at a local community college to help further her office experience back then, which was certainly beneficial.

When we lived in South Dakota back in 2009, she tried to apply to both office and retail jobs. She had a nice, full resume of decades of work, she's a hard worker, she put in the time and effort at the jobs she's had over the years, all that good stuff. Know what the only job she was able to get was? A minimum wage job at Target. She kept getting rejected from a lot of jobs because she was too "over-qualified" for a lot of positions.

The fact is that nowadays, unless you can afford to go to college and get a degree (and I'm not even talking some fancy, super expensive college, either, just general college classes), your job opportunities in some towns, especially in smaller ones, are narrow. You may HAVE to take a minimum wage job because that's the only type of job that will hire you. Moving to a different employer may not be as easy an option, for all sorts of reasons. People working minimum wage jobs for a living aren't doing so because they lack the "personal responsibility" to go elsewhere or get promoted, so let's stop with that belief right there. They do that kind of work because it's the only type of job that's available to them (not everyone lives in a big city with lots of job opportunities, after all), or the only sort that will bother to hire them.

And as for promotions, yeah, that's a great idea...except some jobs will promote people based less off of their actual job performance and more off the fact that they happen to kiss up to the owners, or they know somebody/are related to somebody in the business. I remember my dad telling stories about that happening when he worked in radio. And I know it's the case for many other types of jobs in this town as well.

Minimum wage jobs may have been a fun after school type of job for high school kids back in the day, but nowadays, they're pretty much the only option some people have to make any sort of a living at all. So yes, in that case, we either need to allow for more opportunities for people to get jobs that aren't minimum wage, or we need to make the minimum wage jobs pay enough for people to at least pay the basics-food, bills, heat, and the like.
If you just inflate minimum wage to $15 an hour say, first of all, do you think any good business leader is just going to say, oh well, our profits are down! Of course not, they will decide to cut expenses by automating, or laying people off, and/or passing the expenses on to the consumer. NONE of which are healthy. This is already happening in the states that have tried MANDATORY minimum wage hikes.

And to say that ALL people who aren't able to get promotions or go to another company is not their "personal responsibility" is just a complete falsehood.

There may be situations where people are stuck in a dead end job, but ultimately, it's not the government's responsibility to "fix that". More times than not, it's drive and ambition related, or maybe having to work a job or a shift that you don't necessarily like, but is necessary.
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:37 PM   #662
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:38 PM   #663
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Guys. We are *this* close to piss tape confirmation. Can't we just get along?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/sen-...testimony.html
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:52 PM   #664
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either you haven't looked at the actual numbers, or if you have you're ignoring them. you can't just flatly assert without evidence that "the vast majority of the american public has seen no improvement" when most of the statistics plainly show otherwise.
PhilsFan also posted that the country continues to lurch to the right. Maybe he hasn't noticed what is actually happening in his country: continuing progress on gay rights, legalization of pot, the continuing decline in religious affiliation, lower birth rates, lower marriage rates (and higher average age for couples who do marry), the recent pushback on sexual misconduct, etc etc.

People will see what they want to see, facts be damned.
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:58 PM   #665
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Guys. We are *this* close to piss tape confirmation. Can't we just get along?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/sen-...testimony.html
I wish I could just throw in a few fun popcorn gifs, but I'm convinced there could be 100 verified pee tapes released, and it wouldn't make a difference.

I'm hanging my hopes on Trump being interviewed under oath and spewing a torrent of lies (i.e., talking), and that's the rope he'll hang himself with. A team of 200 lawyers could counsel him on what to say, and tell him not to lie, and he won't be able to stop himself.
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Old 01-09-2018, 03:59 PM   #666
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I wish I could just throw in a few fun popcorn gifs, but I'm convinced there could be 100 verified pee tapes released, and it wouldn't make a difference.
Difference or not, I want to live in a world where they're real.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:00 PM   #667
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Ha. Fair point.
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:20 PM   #668
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Bannon steps down.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:06 PM   #669
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are you just guessing here or do you have any actual statistics or evidence to back up these confident assertions or your claim that apparently economic science is no longer relevant?
iYup gets into it a bit here:
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Statistically there is no way around that wages for lower and middle class people are not growing at the same rate as other essential sectors of the economy, esp. housing and education, and actually have been hardly growing in real terms for decades now. Minimum wage for example should be around $19 right now had it kept up with inflation since its inception. There is merit to a lot of what PFan is saying.

Plenty of charts about this here:

Wage Stagnation in Nine Charts | Economic Policy Institute

And yes the stock market is great right now, but a lot of people don't see any direct benefit from that, either.

U.S. Stock Ownership Down Among All but Older, Higher-Income
I will follow up with more soon, this is not something I am just shooting from the hip with.
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Part of this though, and this will show more this year and next, as businesses are relieved of regulations, then competition will grow, which always improves products and services, and drives prices down. This will help low income and middle income earners.

Falsely inflating minimum wage never works. Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be careers if you can't live on it. That's where getting qualified for promotions or moving to a different employer is part of personal responsibility.
Deregulation is not a solution, let's not go down that path here. It's easily disproven.

And that's such a simplistic analysis of the minimum wage issue that I question whether you are arguing in good faith.
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PhilsFan also posted that the country continues to lurch to the right. Maybe he hasn't noticed what is actually happening in his country: continuing progress on gay rights, legalization of pot, the continuing decline in religious affiliation, lower birth rates, lower marriage rates (and higher average age for couples who do marry), the recent pushback on sexual misconduct, etc etc.

People will see what they want to see, facts be damned.
Every single issue you mentioned is a social issue. Justice does not exist without economic justice, and that has moved further and further to the right for nearly 40 years. You can try to legislate inequality out all you want, but it does not work when the economic system is moving in the other direction.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:31 PM   #670
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PhilsFan also posted that the country continues to lurch to the right. Maybe he hasn't noticed what is actually happening in his country: continuing progress on gay rights, legalization of pot, the continuing decline in religious affiliation, lower birth rates, lower marriage rates (and higher average age for couples who do marry), the recent pushback on sexual misconduct, etc etc.

People will see what they want to see, facts be damned.
There's right and left on social issues, and there's right and left on economic issues.

Why the two stupid parties in our country feel the need to tie the two together, I do not know... alas.

We're certainly much further to the left on most social issues than we were 20-30 years ago. That's undeniable, even if there's still a shit load of work to do.

Economically? Hey, I lean further to the right on economic policy than many here, but I'd be a damned fool if I didn't admit that we have major issues with wealth distribution, the likes of which we haven't seen since the gilded age - and with this latest tax bill it's only going to get worse.


I have minimal complaints about my current job or pay - but the majority owner of the company I work for could give every full time employee of the company a gift of one million dollars each and still be worth half a billion dollars. The minority owner could give every employee 5 million dollars each and still be worth 17 billion dollars.

There is so much money wrapped up in the hands of so few. It's obscene. I don't even think most people realize how obscene it actually is.

Something needs to be done... and giving more tax cuts to the wealthy sure as shit isn't the answer.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:54 PM   #671
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There is so much money wrapped up in the hands of so few. It's obscene. I don't even think most people realize how obscene it actually is.

Something needs to be done... and giving more tax cuts to the wealthy sure as shit isn't the answer.
This. I get tired of the "personal responsibility" argument because I am sick to death of people assuming that if we're not financially stable, it's largely because of our own actions. I find it amazing how we always seem to have money available when rich people need it. When CEOs want raises and golden parachutes, when they get themselves in financial jams and need to be bailed out, great, they can get all the money and aid they need. I don't hear people telling Trump that he doesn't need all those buildings. Nobody ever tells rich people that they don't need to have five homes on different continents. They're rich, right, so hey they can splurge all they want! The CEO at the KMart where my mom worked got to walk away with millions in a bonus when the store shut down, while all the employees, my mom included, were left wondering how they were going to pay their bills until they found more work (and what's more, they had to sign an agreement that they wouldn't collectively try and take action against the company before they could even get their final paychecks). So much for that good ol' trickle down economic theory, huh?

But the moment middle class/working class/poor people ask for livable wages, or dare to use government aid to help them through a tough time, or want more affordable healthcare, or other things of that sort, suddenly we're just not exercising personal responsibility. Or we're lazy moochers sucking off the system. Or we're not working hard enough. Or we're "entitled" (because apparently just asking to be able to afford to go to a doctor without going broke or wanting a job that pays enough for us to pay our bills each month is now being entitled). And all of our purchases are scrutinized and questioned, and we're called out if we dare spend money beyond our means, even if and when we have a valid reason to do so. If we find ourselves in a financial jam, no bailouts for us. Just gotta pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. That'll solve everything.

There is something very wrong with that picture, and that attitude, for sure.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:11 PM   #672
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This. I get tired of the "personal responsibility" argument because I am sick to death of people assuming that if we're not financially stable, it's largely because of our own actions. I find it amazing how we always seem to have money available when rich people need it. When CEOs want raises and golden parachutes, when they get themselves in financial jams and need to be bailed out, great, they can get all the money and aid they need. I don't hear people telling Trump that he doesn't need all those buildings. Nobody ever tells rich people that they don't need to have five homes on different continents. They're rich, right, so hey they can splurge all they want! The CEO at the KMart where my mom worked got to walk away with millions in a bonus when the store shut down, while all the employees, my mom included, were left wondering how they were going to pay their bills until they found more work (and what's more, they had to sign an agreement that they wouldn't collectively try and take action against the company before they could even get their final paychecks). So much for that good ol' trickle down economic theory, huh?

But the moment middle class/working class/poor people ask for livable wages, or dare to use government aid to help them through a tough time, or want more affordable healthcare, or other things of that sort, suddenly we're just not exercising personal responsibility. Or we're lazy moochers sucking off the system. Or we're not working hard enough. Or we're "entitled" (because apparently just asking to be able to afford to go to a doctor without going broke or wanting a job that pays enough for us to pay our bills each month is now being entitled). And all of our purchases are scrutinized and questioned, and we're called out if we dare spend money beyond our means, even if and when we have a valid reason to do so. If we find ourselves in a financial jam, no bailouts for us. Just gotta pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. That'll solve everything.

There is something very wrong with that picture, and that attitude, for sure.
Using goverment aid for a tough time is what it's supposed to be for, a "safety net", not supposed to be a "safety hammock", meaning should never be so easy and comfortable that it becomes a lifestyle. This happens way too often these days. I am VERY familiar, TOO familiar in fact with being "the working poor". But having lower taxes puts more money in my check, and unfortunately Obamacare inflated the cost of insurance premiums and skyrocketed deductibles for many of us, so fixing that mess would put more money into our pockets as well.

As soon as you make minimum wage jobs $15 an hour, what does that do for jobs that are currently $15 an hour? An employer shouldn't be forced to pay a wage for a job that the market doesn't value at the same level. I'm sorry that that concept bothers you, but what else would encourage people to change industries, or work harder, work a different shift, etc. in order to make more money. I'm sorry, but people aren't entitled to "more money" just because their life is hard. The problem is that too many think they're "entitled" to a lot of things.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:31 PM   #673
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Using goverment aid for a tough time is what it's supposed to be for, a "safety net", not supposed to be a "safety hammock", meaning should never be so easy and comfortable that it becomes a lifestyle. This happens way too often these days. I am VERY familiar, TOO familiar in fact with being "the working poor". But having lower taxes puts more money in my check, and unfortunately Obamacare inflated the cost of insurance premiums and skyrocketed deductibles for many of us, so fixing that mess would put more money into our pockets as well.

As soon as you make minimum wage jobs $15 an hour, what does that do for jobs that are currently $15 an hour? An employer shouldn't be forced to pay a wage for a job that the market doesn't value at the same level. I'm sorry that that concept bothers you, but what else would encourage people to change industries, or work harder, work a different shift, etc. in order to make more money. I'm sorry, but people aren't entitled to "more money" just because their life is hard. The problem is that too many think they're "entitled" to a lot of things.
Hey man... Nobody is going just swimmingly on government assistance. That's an obscenely out of touch statement.

And please... show me the person who's living comfortably on $15/hour.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:47 PM   #674
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Hey man... Nobody is going just swimmingly on government assistance. That's an obscenely out of touch statement.

And please... show me the person who's living comfortably on $15/hour.
This statement is PATENTLY false. There are huge numbers of people "swimmingly on government assistance". I have had multiple people try to teach me how to game the system, and live quite well. I see it, I live next door to it.

And again, if someone who is single, married, has kids, etc. can't live on $15 an hour is not the issue. Everyone makes choices, and I made mine, and I bit off more than I could chew when I had my kids, so I have had to struggle to make ends meet. But that's nobody's responsibility but my own. I am doing a little better now, because I've worked my ass off to do it. But nobody OWES me anything.

No one is OWED anything by the government, or by anyone. That's what I'm teaching my kids. I know it's not a popular concept anymore, but personal responsibility for our own lives and choices should be focused on more these days, not what we can get for free, or by using "other people's money".

I would like to keep more of the money I make, and use it for charity to those who truly need assistance, rather than have the government disseminate it for me. I'm sure that's not a popular opinion around here, but we can agree to disagree.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:52 PM   #675
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:52 PM   #676
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There's right and left on social issues, and there's right and left on economic issues.

Why the two stupid parties in our country feel the need to tie the two together, I do not know... alas.
They often are tied together IMO, just on issues that tend to fly under the general radar. Libertarians are a good example. They are financially conservative as all hell but often get tagged as socially liberal because they don't oppose same-sex marriage and a few other such issues. However, they also tend not to see any value in social service spending, which directly impacts a wide swatch of social groups and in some cases is an important factor in class mobility.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:53 PM   #677
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Part of this though, and this will show more this year and next, as businesses are relieved of regulations, then competition will grow, which always improves products and services, and drives prices down. This will help low income and middle income earners.



Falsely inflating minimum wage never works. Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be careers if you can't live on it. That's where getting qualified for promotions or moving to a different employer is part of personal responsibility.
Sounds good in theory, right?

It’s a lot like walking outside, realizing it’s cold and saying climate change has to be a hoax.

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If you just inflate minimum wage to $15 an hour say, first of all, do you think any good business leader is just going to say, oh well, our profits are down! Of course not, they will decide to cut expenses by automating, or laying people off, and/or passing the expenses on to the consumer. NONE of which are healthy. This is already happening in the states that have tried MANDATORY minimum wage hikes.



And to say that ALL people who aren't able to get promotions or go to another company is not their "personal responsibility" is just a complete falsehood.



There may be situations where people are stuck in a dead end job, but ultimately, it's not the government's responsibility to "fix that". More times than not, it's drive and ambition related, or maybe having to work a job or a shift that you don't necessarily like, but is necessary.

I like how you have no faith in companies to look out for the employees if profits drop some, but you always have so much faith in companies to just organically pay their employees more when profits are up. The minimum wage hasn’t changed much in past decades and surely hasn’t matched inflation, yet profits are up for many, the servers are still making minimum wage. How’s that theory working out for you?

And the irony of those preaching ‘everything is personal responsibility’, bitching that immigrants took their jobs and how exciting they are to go back in the coal mines is not lost. You can’t preach ‘personal responsibility’, when your guy won due to a bunch of whining people who couldn’t adapt.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:58 PM   #678
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A lot of large companies that just saw big tax cuts just laid off more employees. Businesses cannot be trusted.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:00 PM   #679
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Sounds good in theory, right?

It’s a lot like walking outside, realizing it’s cold and saying climate change has to be a hoax.




I like how you have no faith in companies to look out for the employees if profits drop some, but you always have so much faith in companies to just organically pay their employees more when profits are up. The minimum wage hasn’t changed much in past decades and surely hasn’t matched inflation, yet profits are up for many, the servers are still making minimum wage. How’s that theory working out for you?

And the irony of those preaching ‘everything is personal responsibility’, bitching that immigrants took their jobs and how exciting they are to go back in the coal mines is not lost. You can’t preach ‘personal responsibility’, when your guy won due to a bunch of whining people who couldn’t adapt.
I like how you make so many assumptions. The "big bad companies" that you talk about will not retain the best talent if they don't pay them. Develop your skills, and if you don't like what you're paid, go somewhere else.

And again, no one answered my question about the minimum wage........if flipping burgers now is worth $15 an hour, then do all other jobs that have higher qualifications go up exponentially?? How does that work?

Oh, and for your other assumption.....Trump's not my guy, he disgusts me. I just understand how economics and free market capitalism works.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:06 PM   #680
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I like how you make so many assumptions. The "big bad companies" that you talk about will not retain the best talent if they don't pay them. Develop your skills, and if you don't like what you're paid, go somewhere else.



And again, no one answered my question about the minimum wage........if flipping burgers now is worth $15 an hour, then do all other jobs that have higher qualifications go up exponentially?? How does that work?



Oh, and for your other assumption.....Trump's not my guy, he disgusts me. I just understand how economics and free market capitalism works.


I agree, those coal miners should have learned to code, and we wouldn’t be in this mess.
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