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Old 01-04-2018, 02:40 PM   #501
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This is correct.

What scares me is what is Trump going to do when Mueller indicts his sons, and potentially Ivanka.

You know it was kinda nice for about a week to not have any sort of crazy WTF moment. Sure enough holidays are over and it’s back to every day being more embarrassing than the last.
If anyone in Trump's family is indicted, he'll just pardon them. That's his line I think.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:41 PM   #502
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The Resistance is indeed mostly just tweeting. The people on the frontlines in Charlottesville, for example, weren't "The Resistance," they were far leftists who believe direct confrontation with white supremacists is the only solution for beating back against them.

ETA: Wise of you to remove that dumbass Maher picture.

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Trump will leave office the same way he came in...via the democratic process, whether that means impeachment or invocation of the 25th Amendment or he loses the next election or simply declines to run. Hopefully sooner rather than later. But the country will survive, intact, and still be here (though perhaps a bit worse for wear and licking its wounds) when it's all said and done. But democrat will survive and America will endure...which is more than you could say if there was a genuine revolution.
To be clear, simply "going back to normal," which is what a lot of people called for, will still leave the country largely in a terrible state. Historic wealth inequality, unconscionable amounts of poverty for such a wealthy nation, a continuing crisis in healthcare, a whole generation drowning in debt with little to no path to home ownership, racism as prevalent as it has been in quite a long time, including systemically ... America has always had major issues. There is no state of "normalcy" to return to in any era that could ever be considered acceptable.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:44 PM   #503
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I'm not saying I think it'll happen, but if Trump fires Mueller, I will join a march/protest. I haven't done it before (crowds, yuck!), but that will get me in the streets.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:44 PM   #504
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To be clear, simply "going back to normal," which is what a lot of people called for, will still leave the country largely in a terrible state. Historic wealth inequality, unconscionable amounts of poverty for such a wealthy nation, a continuing crisis in healthcare, a whole generation drowning in debt with little to no path to home ownership, racism as prevalent as it has been in quite a long time, including systemically ... America has always had major issues. There is no state of "normalcy" to return to in any era that could ever be considered acceptable.
Yes, but has always been thus in America. Trump didn't bring that stuff in, and it will still be around on his way out.


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ETA: Wise of you to remove that dumbass Maher picture.
No, just decided it belonged in the other thread.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:55 PM   #505
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Yes, but has always thus in America. Trump didn't bring that stuff in, and it will still be around on his way out.
That is true, I do not deny that. Trump has brought unique awfulness to the government in a number of aspects, but his policy positions and initiatives since his second week in office have largely been boiler plate Republican policy.

My point is, the Democrats need to understand appeals to the center and their half measure policies that were so popular during the Clinton and Obama presidencies don't work. Electing someone in the mold of Joe Biden (policy wise) in 2020 is just going to set up for the next GOP president as the country continues getting dragged farther and farther to the right.
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:03 PM   #506
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That is true, I do not deny that. Trump has brought unique awfulness to the government in a number of aspects, but his policy positions and initiatives since his second week in office have largely been boiler plate Republican policy.

My point is, the Democrats need to understand appeals to the center and their half measure policies that were so popular during the Clinton and Obama presidencies don't work. Electing someone in the mold of Joe Biden (policy wise) in 2020 is just going to set up for the next GOP president as the country continues getting dragged farther and farther to the right.
Well yes.

I think in the near term there issue isn't whether a certain set of policies work, but rather do they win. The simply fact is that centrist policies aren't where the excitement is among the Democratic base. And to implement any kind of policy Dems have to first win, and that means an excited base. So I think it's very likely we'll see the most outwardly progressive Dem in history win the nomination in 2020.

You made a really good point about electoral participation...if people can't even be bothered to vote, what are the chances they'll take to the streets?

Mass media tends to hypnotise societies in a way. When people have just enough to be comfortable, and enough diversions, they're not going to want to rock the boat and chance losing what they have. It's the fear of that loss that prevents a real revolution. Fear of losing what you have is a powerful force for inaction. Until enough people feel like they have nothing left to lose, you won't see any kind of meaningful, mass protests (IMO).
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:15 PM   #507
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The problem, of course, is that Democrats (and many of their "core" voters, the Resistance folks you are talking about who also, coincidentally, love horseshoe theory) still believe centrist policy is the answer. They think because Republicans still call them leftists and socialists and progressives that the solution is simply moving more to the right, because they truly believe the best way to get elected is to steal moderate Republican voters instead of trying to get people who don't normally vote to vote.

They don't seem to realize that measuring themselves against what the other side calls them doesn't work. They don't realize that their attacks on Republicans, which are all about hypocrisy and methodology and tone, don't work. You need to offer people something.
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:24 PM   #508
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I'm not saying I think it'll happen, but if Trump fires Mueller, I will join a march/protest. I haven't done it before (crowds, yuck!), but that will get me in the streets.


Ditto.

The Women’s March was a massive show of force, or resistance, to the idea of Trump as normal or acceptable. I marched several times against the Iraq War, as well as a massive pro-choice march on the Mall. There are times and places for it, and whether or not it does any measurable “good,” marches do inspire many in many different ways.
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:28 PM   #509
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The problem, of course, is that Democrats (and many of their "core" voters, the Resistance folks you are talking about who also, coincidentally, love horseshoe theory) still believe centrist policy is the answer. They think because Republicans still call them leftists and socialists and progressives that the solution is simply moving more to the right, because they truly believe the best way to get elected is to steal moderate Republican voters instead of trying to get people who don't normally vote to vote.


If people who don’t normally vote couldn’t be bothered to vote against Trump, what makes you think there is anything (i.e., a list of leftists policies, that will still have to make their way through Congress) that would inspire non-voters to vote?
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:04 PM   #510
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If people who don’t normally vote couldn’t be bothered to vote against Trump, what makes you think there is anything (i.e., a list of leftists policies, that will still have to make their way through Congress) that would inspire non-voters to vote?


Hope and Change
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:08 PM   #511
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In all seriousness we need a change to our election process. Our primary system is too fucking long, and i still don’t know what a damn caucus is. How is that even democratic ? Seems more like an auction

The day to vote needs to move to a Saturday. Open early, close late.

No more electoral college. Twice now we’ve elected a person the majority of people didn’t want. And both times it’s damn near destroyed the country and parts of the world. Trump will succeed with the latter if we drop nukes on NK

Mandatory voting wouldn’t be so bad either. The country is a mess (and has been) and it’s time we start taking a part in trying to fix it. At least by voting you’ve done the bare minimum
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:09 PM   #512
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Ditto.

The Women’s March was a massive show of force, or resistance, to the idea of Trump as normal or acceptable. I marched several times against the Iraq War, as well as a massive pro-choice march on the Mall. There are times and places for it, and whether or not it does any measurable “good,” marches do inspire many in many different ways.
What I think is interesting about this, and I promise you absolutely no offence is intended, is the privilege that comes along with the notion. And it's something that I've heard many people say...that they'll take to the streets if Mueller is fired.

Real, genuine, grass level mass protests, work disruptions, strikes, etc. happen because people are without hope and desperate. Or oppressed (see the Civil Rights Movement). But firing Mueller is purely a political thing. Something that frankly most Americans won't care about. Oh, if you ask them in a poll, they'll say they care. But Mueller and the Russia investigation, serious as they are, aren't things most people worry about. Even if firing Mueller could spark a Constitutional crisis. I can't remember who it was, but someone called the Women's March, and protests like this, "Middle Class Protests".

Firing Mueller doesn't take food from anyone's table, or take anyone's job, or put anyone in prison. It's a privilege, a luxury to be so angry about such an action that you take to the streets.

Again, I genuinely mean no disrespect in saying this, firing Mueller would anger me as well. But IMO any protests coming out of this would, one, be mostly organised by groups like MoveOn, and two, be short lived expressions of anger.

And as an aside, I don't think any peaceful mass protest movements have forced any kind of significant change in policy since the 1960's. The anti-nuke movement didn't stop nuclear weapons, the ERA demonstrations didn't pass the ERA, the Iraq war protests didn't keep the US out of Iraq, none of the anti-Globilization protests have added up to anything, Occupy became more about the encampments than what they were protesting...etc., etc., etc. The Vietnam protests, and the Civil Rights protests certainly brought about change (though only partially b/c of the protests), but since then? What?
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:10 PM   #513
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I don't take offense, nor do I disagree. I have a shit-ton of privilege.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:23 PM   #514
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US Politics V - now with 20% more echo chamber

One could argue that the Iraq War protests laid the groundwork, and intellectual framework for Obama — had HRC opposed the Iraq War in 2003, she would have won in 2008. By 2006, the Democrats, and the country, were fully anti-War and swept back into power in the midterms.

I’m not seeing what’s so privileged or not about protesting? It’s something citizens in representational democracies do, and just because they aren’t starving or subjected to mass detainment by the state doesn’t mean they’re silly to do so, as if it’s only worthwhile if you win?

Mueller being fired would be a clear, quantifiable step into authoritarian rule — it’s actionable. Thus, protests. Battles must be picked.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:34 PM   #515
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In all seriousness we need a change to our election process. Our primary system is too fucking long, and i still don’t know what a damn caucus is. How is that even democratic ? Seems more like an auction

The day to vote needs to move to a Saturday. Open early, close late.

No more electoral college. Twice now we’ve elected a person the majority of people didn’t want. And both times it’s damn near destroyed the country and parts of the world. Trump will succeed with the latter if we drop nukes on NK

Mandatory voting wouldn’t be so bad either. The country is a mess (and has been) and it’s time we start taking a part in trying to fix it. At least by voting you’ve done the bare minimum
Well ditching the electoral college and mandatory voting are pipe dreams. You'd have to change the Constitution and that's not going to happen anytime soon. In fact it's almost impossible.

Saturday voting, extended voting hours, mail in ballots, etc. are all good ideas that make sense, and are things in general that most Democrats want. But none of that can happen without bringing Republicans on board...their priorities are things like voter ID. So any comprehensive legislation changing when and how people vote in the US would have to involve give and take with the GOP, and that would certainly mean very strict voter ID.

And remember that the Constitution primarily leaves how voting is conducted up to the individual states, so there's some debate on just how much authority Congress has in this matter anyway.

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I’m not seeing what’s so privileged or not about protesting?
Protesting in itself isn't necessarily privileged (though it's a right most of us take for granted that many in the world don't have). But what you choose to get up and protest about can certainly be a reflection of privilege.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:06 PM   #516
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And anyone who asks why people aren't taking to the streets should first ask themselves why they aren't on the streets.
I am assuming you are referring to ME since I posed the question.

I am not an American citizen nor do I reside in the US any longer so it's not a relevant question in any event.

People are very complacent, that much is true. And yes, it is different when you are dealing with a state that is under collapse which means you're unemployed and hungry. But nevertheless I found that all the protests thus far and the entire notion of the Resistance has been pretty futile and restricted to a lot of Twitter venting as most people here have pointed out.

The Trump book quotes sources saying he referred to Sally Yates as a c*** prior to firing her, that's par for the course and another example of what we women have to live with on a daily basis, and this message is being sent from the very top. But even the women's march didn't really go anywhere productive...
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:36 PM   #517
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I'm sure Trump uses the c word about women on a daily basis. That's who he is, a misogynist pig.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:22 PM   #518
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I'm sure Trump uses the c word about women on a daily basis. That's who he is, a misogynist pig.
Have you read this nugget yet from the book:

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Trump liked to say that one of the things that made life worth living was getting your friends’ wives into bed. In pursuing a friend’s wife, he would try to persuade the wife that her husband was perhaps not what she thought. Then he’d have his secretary ask the friend into his office; once the friend arrived, Trump would engage in what was, for him, more or less constant sexual banter. Do you still like having sex with your wife? How often? You must have had a better fuck than your wife? Tell me about it. I have girls coming in from Los Angeles at three o’clock. We can go upstairs and have a great time. I promise… And all the while, Trump would have his friend’s wife on the speakerphone, listening in.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:49 PM   #519
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How that comment about "grabbing them by the p***y" didn't sink him is still beyond me. I simply cannot understand how any woman came to vote for him after that. Where in recent history has there been such an explicit attack on a large demographic from a major party candidate?
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:58 PM   #520
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Edit: never mind.
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