US Politics V - now with 20% more echo chamber - Page 20 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-20-2017, 10:16 AM   #381
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,465
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
I've been thinking about why people, despite an overwhelming amount of evidence, continually vote against their interests. It's certainly not the way I operate. I look at the facts, analyze the different policy positions, and make an educated decision based on that. I have voted for centrist or leftist candidates most of the time, but have also voted for people on the right of the political spectrum if I think their policies will benefit society as a whole more than the others on the ballot. I have not changed this as I have gotten older.

And while I think tribalism is a major factor in how divided the United States is, on both sides, there are other issues at play here. For instance, it seems to me that many low and middle class Americans worship those who are wealthy. I see it a lot in sports, particularly the NFL. A lot of people will defend rich owners, despite evidence that they are incompetent or dishonest, at the very least, at the expense of the players. I saw it on social media a year ago when San Francisco media, for example, would be critical of how Jed York has run the 49ers, and wave after wave of fans would defend him. I found that very odd.

All this to say that I think many low and middle class Americans see their situation as only temporary. That with hard work and a little luck they, too, will soon join the ranks of the uber-rich. It's why I think they'll vote against their own interests because they believe that these policies will help them move into a higher income bracket. They don't think that the system is rigged against them, despite evidence to the contrary.

So it's why, for now, much of Trump's base supports this tax overhaul. Sure, it's a transfer of money to the wealthy on the backs of low and middle class Americans, but many feel that this will help them move up the ladder and eventually these policies will benefit them, too. It's a mindset that I think is uniquely American, based on the importance of the individual rights over collective rights that has been espoused for more than two centuries.

I hope that made sense!


There’s a saying: there are no poor people in America, just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:31 AM   #382
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,170
Local Time: 09:58 PM
I don't know about you, but I blame Jim Dolan and Fred Wilpon for EVERYTHING.
__________________

Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:50 AM   #383
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,514
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
I've been thinking about why people, despite an overwhelming amount of evidence, continually vote against their interests. It's certainly not the way I operate. I look at the facts, analyze the different policy positions, and make an educated decision based on that. I have voted for centrist or leftist candidates most of the time, but have also voted for people on the right of the political spectrum if I think their policies will benefit society as a whole more than the others on the ballot. I have not changed this as I have gotten older.

And while I think tribalism is a major factor in how divided the United States is, on both sides, there are other issues at play here. For instance, it seems to me that many low and middle class Americans worship those who are wealthy. I see it a lot in sports, particularly the NFL. A lot of people will defend rich owners, despite evidence that they are incompetent or dishonest, at the very least, at the expense of the players. I saw it on social media a year ago when San Francisco media, for example, would be critical of how Jed York has run the 49ers, and wave after wave of fans would defend him. I found that very odd.

All this to say that I think many low and middle class Americans see their situation as only temporary. That with hard work and a little luck they, too, will soon join the ranks of the uber-rich. It's why I think they'll vote against their own interests because they believe that these policies will help them move into a higher income bracket. They don't think that the system is rigged against them, despite evidence to the contrary.

So it's why, for now, much of Trump's base supports this tax overhaul. Sure, it's a transfer of money to the wealthy on the backs of low and middle class Americans, but many feel that this will help them move up the ladder and eventually these policies will benefit them, too. It's a mindset that I think is uniquely American, based on the importance of the individual rights over collective rights that has been espoused for more than two centuries.

I hope that made sense!
I feel like it's just straight up delusion. The Buddha talked about three hallucinations:

Perception
Mind
View

Perception is where you are on a trail and there's a stick ahead, but you perceive it as a snake.

Mind is where you create the emotions and thoughts out of it being a snake.

Those first two can be uprooted easily enough by examination.

Hallucination of view is where your judgement/mind/perception is so rooted down that no matter what evidence, facts, examination is presented the view does not change. This is the hardest one to resolve. But if it is, the first two naturally dissolve away.

Tribalism, Echo Chambers, Fantasy (of being rich), Self Fulfilling Prophecies, Anger, Fear of Change, and the list goes on and on for what keeps people stuck in their ways.

My own fear is that with Trump being in charge, and such anti science, anti fact GOP that we may never return to an age of reason, of logic, of sound judgement.

All because of a few million people are blinded by their own delusion.

I do want to say that I don't think a conservative view is delusion. I am not one to just throw money at ideas, bloat up the government, and policies without having a sound economic plan in place. I think the Government could be trimmed down (MILITARY), and inefficiencies made. Old school conservatism was about providing more freedom from Government.

No, mine is what the GOP and the Right wing has become
BEAL is offline  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:10 PM   #384
ONE
love, blood, life
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,575
Local Time: 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
All this to say that I think many low and middle class Americans see their situation as only temporary. That with hard work and a little luck they, too, will soon join the ranks of the uber-rich.
This is supported in the over-confidence effect. It's the same kind of thing that makes people take on an adjustable rate mortgage that will quickly outpace their earnings. Well probably a combination of that and an imperfect understanding of how an adjustable rate mortgage works.
iron yuppie is online now  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:41 PM   #385
Blue Crack Supplier
 
IWasBored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 36,784
Local Time: 10:58 PM
US Politics V - now with 20% more echo chamber

I think a lot of random people making 10 bucks an hour looks at their paycheck and see a substantial amount of what little they make to begin with going to taxes, social security, medicare, medicaid, and they still feel like it’s the government taking the money they made and giving it to able-bodied adults who just don’t want to work. Instead of listening to or engaging with anyone who points out to them that actually, this tax plan is a lot more like taking money from you and giving it to people who already make way more than you’ll ever make instead, they’ll just scream libtard and continue to buy into the weird revisionist history that Reagan-era economics were actually a good thing.

The magic phrase “tax cuts” was said, so therefore it must be true that all those not-really-disabled people won’t be able to buy TVs with my money anymore! At least this has always been the view of the people who turned out to be Trump supporters that I’ve known.
IWasBored is offline  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:12 PM   #386
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,170
Local Time: 09:58 PM
I can't wait for my billionaire boss to give me a raise. Because that's how this works now, right?
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 12-20-2017, 01:19 PM   #387
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 10:58 PM
They still believe in the American Dream and that it is within reach of everybody. They are wilfully blind and many are not too bright.

My husband is employed by a large international bank and we are pretty heavily invested/leveraged to the USD and US economy so thank you lower class Republican idiots, you did us a huge at your own expense. And they scoff at the elites while enriching them for no reason. It would be funny if it weren’t so tragic.
anitram is offline  
Old 12-20-2017, 03:29 PM   #388
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,514
Local Time: 02:58 AM
They only hate the elite cause they’re not smart enough to be one
BEAL is offline  
Old 12-20-2017, 03:33 PM   #389
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,170
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Tweet from @ABC: Pres. Trump: "Steve Scalise, he's braver than all of us...He had a rougher year than most of us. But—that's a hell of a way to lose weight, Steve." https://t.co/Jpp0a6z8wS
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 12-20-2017, 03:38 PM   #390
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 07:58 PM
If anyone else had said that, it might have gone over okay, but coming out of Trump's mouth, it's just one more cringe-worthy moment thing of his mouth.
corianderstem is offline  
Old 12-20-2017, 07:02 PM   #391
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,716
Local Time: 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
All this to say that I think many low and middle class Americans see their situation as only temporary. That with hard work and a little luck they, too, will soon join the ranks of the uber-rich. It's why I think they'll vote against their own interests because they believe that these policies will help them move into a higher income bracket. They don't think that the system is rigged against them, despite evidence to the contrary.
Heh, my family got disabused of that notion a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago. My parents did, and do, work hard. Very hard. I've worked hard. And yet we're not even remotely close to middle class, let alone anything above that. And my parents have worked at jobs that screwed them over while rewarding people who didn't work anywhere near as hard, and while selling out to corporate big wigs as well.

Course, in my family's case, we've never even wanted to be part of the uber-rich anyway. All my family's ever wanted was to be able to afford to go to the doctor without going bankrupt. We want to live in a nice little house (nothing fancy, either, a modest little one or two story place would do). We want to be able to pay our bills without having to live paycheck to paycheck, or, as we did in the past, having to decide between basic necessities.

That's it. That's literally all we've ever asked for. If we ever found ourselves with millions of dollars we'd wind up giving away much of it anyway, 'cause we wouldn't know what to do with all the money that'd be left over after we'd taken care of necessities. I think way too many people either think they HAVE to focus on getting super rich to feel they've "made it" in this world, or too many rich people think everyone naturally wants to live their kind of lifestyle.

I just wonder how many times these policies have to fail before it finally sinks in for people that trickle down economics DOES. NOT. WORK. What on earth is it going to take to wake people up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IWasBored View Post
The magic phrase “tax cuts” was said, so therefore it must be true that all those not-really-disabled people won’t be able to buy TVs with my money anymore! At least this has always been the view of the people who turned out to be Trump supporters that I’ve known.
Yep, and that is an attitude that desperately needs to die so fast. I am so incredibly beyond sick and tired of people judging those who rely on government aid to help them through tough times. Every time I hear somebody gripe about that, I want so badly, SO BADLY, to take them with me back in time to live the life my family was living between November 2009 and April 2010, when my dad was deathly ill and we had virtually no money. I want to take them back to live with me during the times in my childhood when my family was living in motels because we were so financially strapped, and needed to budget out what we could and could not afford.

Those people wouldn't last a day, if that, in my family's shoes. I guarantee you. But maybe being forced to experience that would make them finally shut the hell up and understand what it's really like. It's nowhere near the free-for-all party they like to think it is.

Frankly, while I know some people have scammed the system, I honestly don't even know how the hell they manage to do that. My family had to go through endless amounts of red tape to get any sort of financial and medical help when my dad was sick. And he was literally bedridden.

I've seen people talk about how charity is better than the government in these sorts of situations, too, and that just further proves they don't really get it. Yes, charity is wonderful. Charity is welcome. Charity should absolutely be encouraged whenever possible. My family benefited from charity help, too, during tough times.

But what people who suggest that don't realize or think about is that charity can only go so far for so long, too. Some people's struggles are going to last them a good, long while, and unless people are willing to spend their lives donating money to a specific person or cause, the people who need help are going to need something more stable and certain to fall back on if needed as well. It shouldn't be just one or the other, and I don't get why people think it has to be that way. It should be a concerted effort by individuals, private organizations, and the government to help make things better for people who need help.

The media and the Democrats need to keep harping on about just how badly this tax bill will screw people over up through to next year's midterms (and beyond, for that matter). The diehard Trump supporters may not listen, no, but if they go on about this enough to where it gets independents and Democratic voters motivated to get out to the polls and vote out these idiots, then hey, all the better.

If the Democrats did manage to regain control of Congress next year, and if we get a Democrat in office in 2020, would there be ways for them to undo this tax bill as a result? Or would that be easier said than done at this point?
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 12-21-2017, 02:16 PM   #392
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,170
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Quote:
“The United States will remember this day in which it was singled out in this assembly for the very act of exercising our right as a sovereign nation,” said Nikki Haley, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. “We will remember it when, once again, we are called up to make the world’s largest contribution to the U.N., and we will remember it when many countries come calling on us to pay even more and to use our influence for their benefit.”

Haley had said the U.S. Embassy would be moved to Jerusalem regardless of the vote.

“No vote in the United Nations is going to make any difference on that,” she said. “But this vote wil make a difference in how Americans look at the U.N. and how we look at countries that disrespect us at the U.N. And this vote will be remembered.”
So, we're like an evil dictatorship now, right? Just asking for a friend
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 12-21-2017, 02:26 PM   #393
War Child
 
TheFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 763
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Crazy....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ack-north/amp/
TheFox is offline  
Old 12-21-2017, 03:35 PM   #394
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,963
Local Time: 09:58 PM
fuck paywalls
DaveC is offline  
Old 12-21-2017, 04:21 PM   #395
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Philadelphia
Posts: 19,218
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
There’s a saying: there are no poor people in America, just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
Was going to drop this Steinbeck quote in here had you not already done so.
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 12-21-2017, 05:07 PM   #396
War Child
 
TheFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 763
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
fuck paywalls
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...rea/ar-BBH4cp1
TheFox is offline  
Old 12-22-2017, 03:28 PM   #397
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,963
Local Time: 09:58 PM
ladies and gentlemen, the new american ambassador to the netherlands:

DaveC is offline  
Old 12-22-2017, 04:42 PM   #398
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,514
Local Time: 02:58 AM
I’m so glad that words don’t matter anymore.
BEAL is offline  
Old 12-22-2017, 04:49 PM   #399
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,843
Local Time: 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
ladies and gentlemen, the new american ambassador to the netherlands:

Can you please keep him? Pretty please...
And he seems to have some Dutch roots somewhere, sadly.
Popmartijn is offline  
Old 12-22-2017, 05:33 PM   #400
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,963
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popmartijn View Post
Can you please keep him? Pretty please...
fuck no, i'm not american. i don't want this lying sack of shit anywhere near my country, thanks.
__________________

DaveC is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×