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Old 12-18-2017, 11:27 AM   #361
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You may be right.

But I ask this - when did this candidate, president-elect, and now president do anything that made sense?

How many "well this will surely sink him" moments have we had since November 2015?


I mean I can't argue with that, but I for once genuinely see something severely conflicting from a legal sense if he fires him, given what his lawyers have said.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:30 AM   #362
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And what if someone in the DOJ fires Mueller instead?

Stories out there about Trump grumbling that Rosenstein is weak, a secret democrat. Trump CAN fire Rosenstein and then place someone in his place who could fire Mueller.

This is what we have to watch for. Whatever little hope I have in Washington is that no one would do Trump's bidding. They have to know he's fucking guilty and it's only a matter of time before the truth is known. Why hitch yourself to a sinking ship?
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:36 AM   #363
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Who has such authority in the department of justice?
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:37 AM   #364
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And what if someone in the DOJ fires Mueller instead?

Stories out there about Trump grumbling that Rosenstein is weak, a secret democrat. Trump CAN fire Rosenstein and then place someone in his place who could fire Mueller.

This is what we have to watch for. Whatever little hope I have in Washington is that no one would do Trump's bidding. They have to know he's fucking guilty and it's only a matter of time before the truth is known. Why hitch yourself to a sinking ship?
Right... Firing Mueller doesn't necessarily mean that Trump will do the deed himself.

Regardless, I can't see him just accepting the inevitable without at least seeing if Congress will try to stop him .
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:39 AM   #365
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Who has such authority in the department of justice?
The man who appointed Mueller in the first place, Rosenstein. Rosenstein has said he sees no reason to fire Mueller.

Trump can fire Rosenstein and replace him with someone who will fire Mueller.

Sessions cannot do a thing as he is recluse from anything Russia.

Which is another reason why Trump is pissed at Sessions, he didn't want him to step away.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:40 AM   #366
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Who has such authority in the department of justice?
The AG, or in his stead, the deputy AG.

So Trump could conceivably fire Sessions and replace him with someone who isn't recused, or fire Rosenstein and do the same.

Problem is the replacement would need Congressional approval, unless they're a recess appointment.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:41 AM   #367
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Regardless, I can't see him just accepting the inevitable without at least seeing if Congress will try to stop him .
All bets are off once Kush and Junior are indicted.

With rumors swirling that Kushner is next, I think that's why the talk has amped up about firing Mueller.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:42 AM   #368
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The AG, or in his stead, the deputy AG.

So Trump could conceivably fire Sessions and replace him with someone who isn't recused, or fire Rosenstein and do the same.

Problem is the replacement would need Congressional approval, unless they're a recess appointment.
Which is why all the talk of him doing this over Christmas.

Ratings are going to be through the roof this week
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:46 AM   #369
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This is all posturing. Firing Mueller does no benefit at this point in time. They're just attacking the credibility of the investigation because it's gone on for so long that it's starting to make them look bad (regardless of results). But, he's getting exactly what he deserves for firing Comey. Firing Comey created a 10xComey situation. Fire Mueller right now and you'll get a 100xComey situation. Probably from the senate.
The pivotal moment was actually before firing Comey...it was picking Jeff Sessions to be Attorney General. An AG pick that wasn't so involved with the campaign wouldn't have had to recuse himself from the Russia investigation, and could have kept the whole thing in house at DOJ. And in that case Sessions is still the Senator from Alabama, and then there's no Roy Moore and no loss of a Senate seat.

Trump must be hating the day he ever put Sessions in that spot.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:51 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
The AG, or in his stead, the deputy AG.

So Trump could conceivably fire Sessions and replace him with someone who isn't recused, or fire Rosenstein and do the same.

Problem is the replacement would need Congressional approval, unless they're a recess appointment.
There won't be a recess appointment; the Senate has to be in recess for that to happen, and McConnell has kept them in pro forma sessions (no pun intended) for months (presumably, the rumour goes, to prevent Trump for doing such a thing).
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:53 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
The man who appointed Mueller in the first place, Rosenstein. Rosenstein has said he sees no reason to fire Mueller.



Trump can fire Rosenstein and replace him with someone who will fire Mueller.



Sessions cannot do a thing as he is recluse from anything Russia.



Which is another reason why Trump is pissed at Sessions, he didn't want him to step away.


Sorry, that was more of a rhetorical question but I see I missed the mark. I asked it because you said someone in the DOJ... it's just the AG, which in this case, acting in his place, Rosenstein.

Rosenstein will fire Mueller if Trump tells him to. Trump can't fire Mueller himself, I believe. If Trump intended upon firing Rosenstein to replace him because he didn't fire Mueller, this would launch yet another investigation. It's an entire conflict of interest. He wouldn't fire Rosenstein without backlash and more problems. I would assume his better move would actually be to fire Sessions, and his replacement could choose a deputy AG that replaced Rosenstein and thereby allowing Sessions' replacement to assume control of the Mueller investigation.

Just a thought.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:58 AM   #372
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Rosenstein will fire Mueller if Trump tells him to.
Rosenstein has already specifically said he wouldn't do that (unless there was good cause to do so).
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:59 AM   #373
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The fact that we are even discussing these possibilities shows how fucked up of a situation it is.

This isn't normal. Granted, President Trump was never going to be normal, but our democracy is being challenged in ways it hasn't before (or at least in a very, very long time).

This doesn't end well for anyone. Assuming Trump is relieved of his duty, how will his base respond?

Either way this goes, the country continues to be divide itself even more.

We've joked about it, but maybe we do need to break up the country? America (the IDEA!) had a good run
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:07 PM   #374
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Rosenstein has already specifically said he wouldn't do that (unless there was good cause to do so).


You actually take what a politician says at face value?

Plus, I'm pretty sure he said if Trump asked him to, he would not hesitate.
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:09 PM   #375
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I think if Trump tries to fire Mueller it means he believes he's in serious legal jeopardy. And his lawyers will know this before anything becomes public. Similarly, if Trump doesn't fire him, it's probably means he believes, at least now, that he's going to come out of this relatively unscathed (in terms of criminal liability).

So that I think whether Mueller gets canned is the barometer as to whether Trump is really in serious legal trouble (or at least thinks he's in trouble). Because I don't think there's any way Trump lets this go forward if be believes he or his family is threatened...he'll be like a cornered animal. He'll try to fire Mueller, start issuing pardons and call the whole thing a witch hunt.

The fact that he hasn't tried to do so already means that he thinks he's going to come out of this OK.

Quote:
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You actually take what a politician says at face value?

Plus, I'm pretty sure he said if Trump asked him to, he would not hesitate.
Rosenstein isn't a politician. While currently he's a political appointee, he's a career prosecutor. And he actually said specifically in his testimony that if Trump ordered him to fire Mueller he'd only do so with good cause (which is the standard for firing a special counsel).

Quote:
“I’m not going to follow any orders unless I believe that those are lawful and appropriate orders,” Mr. Rosenstein said, adding: “If there were good cause, I would consider. If there were not good cause, it would not matter what anybody says.”
If Rosenstein were in the bag for Trump he never would have appointed a special counsel in the first place.
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Old 12-20-2017, 01:26 AM   #376
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House and Senate have both passed the Republican tax bill. Barring a last minute twist if the House decides to vote against the bill due to its new title, it's headed straight for the Oval Office. Those assholes actually did it. And the chumps that voted for them will lap it up.
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Old 12-20-2017, 08:19 AM   #377
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That 30% that supports him would rather lose everything to get a win over Liberals, than have any sensible legislation pass.

Let’s see how the GOP Congress treat Trump after this is signed. They got their Holy Grail
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Old 12-20-2017, 09:10 AM   #378
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US Politics V - now with 20% more echo chamber

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Old 12-20-2017, 09:27 AM   #379
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Old 12-20-2017, 09:55 AM   #380
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I've been thinking about why people, despite an overwhelming amount of evidence, continually vote against their interests. It's certainly not the way I operate. I look at the facts, analyze the different policy positions, and make an educated decision based on that. I have voted for centrist or leftist candidates most of the time, but have also voted for people on the right of the political spectrum if I think their policies will benefit society as a whole more than the others on the ballot. I have not changed this as I have gotten older.

And while I think tribalism is a major factor in how divided the United States is, on both sides, there are other issues at play here. For instance, it seems to me that many low and middle class Americans worship those who are wealthy. I see it a lot in sports, particularly the NFL. A lot of people will defend rich owners, despite evidence that they are incompetent or dishonest, at the very least, at the expense of the players. I saw it on social media a year ago when San Francisco media, for example, would be critical of how Jed York has run the 49ers, and wave after wave of fans would defend him. I found that very odd.

All this to say that I think many low and middle class Americans see their situation as only temporary. That with hard work and a little luck they, too, will soon join the ranks of the uber-rich. It's why I think they'll vote against their own interests because they believe that these policies will help them move into a higher income bracket. They don't think that the system is rigged against them, despite evidence to the contrary.

So it's why, for now, much of Trump's base supports this tax overhaul. Sure, it's a transfer of money to the wealthy on the backs of low and middle class Americans, but many feel that this will help them move up the ladder and eventually these policies will benefit them, too. It's a mindset that I think is uniquely American, based on the importance of the individual rights over collective rights that has been espoused for more than two centuries.

I hope that made sense!
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