US Politics IV

[Irvine511]

I think it’s more basic than that.

All the “moral values” talk is a smokescreen, and they know that.

 

[BEAL]

So I went on a date with a lady who voted for Trump. She was a very nice person, super sweet. Single mother, manager at her workplace, and living in a nice house in North County / San Diego. So not trailer trash

Her father was in the military, and since that field leans heavily GOP, I think that is what influenced her voting history. She gave no impression of anti feminist, racism, or in favor of the big bad Wall Street.

When I asked why she would vote for someone like Trump, her only answer was "How could you vote for that monster Hillary? Really, HILLARY???"

Clinton has been demonized so much by the GOP that to their base she is literally the anti-christ. She even went as far to say she thought Trump was doing an OK job (this was back in June/July).

I believe it falls under tribalism, and demonizing the other side. Otherwise, I have no idea.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

My Date with a Trump Supporter
By BEAL

 

[BEAL]

We had chips and salsa, some beer, and politely went on our way. I am not going to hate someone for who they voted for, but I'm definitely not going to pursue a relationship with someone with so much of a different view/perspective

 

[anitram]

I think it’s more basic than that.

All the “moral values” talk is a smokescreen, and they know that.

Yeah, that's fair.

It makes me think of the story I read coming out of somewhere in either Virginia or North Carolina in 2008, when somebody canvassing their neighbourhood on behalf of the Obama campaign knocked on the door and your stereotypical white guy with an NRA sticker on the mailbox came out. The canvasser asked him if he had thought about who he was voting for and the guy said something to the effect of "I guess I'm voting for the N-word." I wonder what happened to that guy.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I think something like 53% of white women voted for him (so gross and disappointing)

I'd be interested in knowing what the % of evangelical/fundie white women + rural, uneducated white women was within that 53%. My guess is a large bulk. These are women who either believe it is their Godly duty to follow their "headship" (husband) or just defer to their gun totin' racist man because they were raised in that environment.

Can confirm. My mom's told me about how she works with a lot of women who voted for Trump for the very reasons you note. She's got one co-worker who has even admitted as much, saying that her husband and son tell her that Fox News is the only real news channel out there and she listens to them because "they know best" and stuff like that. Many of my female relatives tend to think similarly. They're the sort who tend to do everything with their husbands, and don't really seem to have much of a life of their own.

I also agree that the extreme hatred for and willingness to believe literally any horrible things said about Hillary, no matter how untrue they are, played a big role, unfortunately. People still believe she would've been worse than what we have now. There's no penetrating that mindset.

So I went on a date with a lady who voted for Trump. She was a very nice person, super sweet. Single mother, manager at her workplace, and living in a nice house in North County / San Diego. So not trailer trash

Aw, hey, let's not toss all trailer park people into the same lot.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

BEAL and The Girl From The North Country.

 

[BVS]

There’s just a huge portion of this population that can’t think. They’ve never opened an economics book, they know nothing of what’s happening outside side of their own borders, and they know nothing of other religions(in fact they know little of their own). So painting a black and white world and denying nuance brings them comfort, for anything else would be uncomfortable. These people are in the Republican Party and Democratic Party, they only care about the D or the R.

So you have a bunch of party over fact zombies, you have the most demonized woman in the US, and this particular loudmouth talks like they do. They could have ran Hitler and most of these folks would have still voted for him.

None of the other stuff matters. It was a technical win, there’s no message here.

People didn’t want to think, so now we’re stuck with this shit stain on our country and will have to find a way to fight the irreconcilable actions of this ego.

 

[Irvine511]

Yeah, that's fair.



It makes me think of the story I read coming out of somewhere in either Virginia or North Carolina in 2008, when somebody canvassing their neighbourhood on behalf of the Obama campaign knocked on the door and your stereotypical white guy with an NRA sticker on the mailbox came out. The canvasser asked him if he had thought about who he was voting for and the guy said something to the effect of "I guess I'm voting for the N-word." I wonder what happened to that guy.

I know several people who have said “my racist grandparents voted for Obama twice.”

Some of it was Obama’s own magic, I think that was a lot of 2008. I think in 2012 they successfully turned Romney into the guy who fired your dad.

2016 ... who can say? I think Trump felt fresh and exciting and different to the two most status quo people ever (Jeb and HRC), and that plus some Russian propaganda was enough for him to lose by 3m votes.

 

[BEAL]

I just finished a book called 'Why Buddhism is True. The Science and Philosophy of Meditation and Enlightenment'

And the author talks about how tribalism is one of the biggest threats to humanity. How we are so driven by our feelings, and our feelings are linked back to the very beginning of a species and Natural Selection. Social Media and Apps are designed to tap into these subconscious wiring to hook us even more (and you could say that about any great marketing campaign).

Even something like Climate Change is done in by our tribalism. If you're a Republican, you're less likely to believe it because you don't trust science.

It's a great read, and something that I've been dabbling in for the past year (vipassana meditation). The author makes the statement that if more and more people could take the time to meditate, it may lead to less and less combativeness against each other.

Anyway, just a random book drop.

 

[kiwilad]

There’s just a huge portion of this population that can’t think. They’ve never opened an economics book, they know nothing of what’s happening outside side of their own borders, and they know nothing of other religions(in fact they know little of their own).

Yep. Which turns attention to primary and secondary education in parts of the US.

How do you come out of 13 or so years of education but still not know how to think? And that's not just a US problem to be fair.

I firmly believe your basic critical thinking skills should be taught at high school. I learnt them at first year university. Philosophy 105. Best learnings I ever did. All 15 and 16 year olds should study it.

 

[iron yuppie]

But the sexual assault, multiple wives -‘d children, the rape accusations, the fat shaming, the daughter-lust, the measuring of a woman’s value in terms of her fuckability — how did white women explain this to themselves?

This is a fundamental question that needs to be answered. We know people often vote against their own best interests out of ignorance to what their best interests are. But in this case the danger to that particular demographic was so transparent as to be totally baffling in why they would have voted Trump.

To add to others' anecdotes: the only woman I know to have voted for Trump is my partner's aunt. Her reasoning (if you want to call it that) was "we already had one guy waving his dick around in office (i.e. Bill Clinton), so what's another?" I still don't know what the hell that is supposed to mean.

 

[Irvine511]

This is a fundamental question that needs to be answered. We know people often vote against their own best interests out of ignorance to what their best interests are. But in this case the danger to that particular demographic was so transparent as to be totally baffling in why they would have voted Trump.

To add to others' anecdotes: the only woman I know to have voted for Trump is my partner's aunt. Her reasoning (if you want to call it that) was "we already had one guy waving his dick around in office (i.e. Bill Clinton), so what's another?" I still don't know what the hell that is supposed to mean.

i'm sure there are myriad ways of looking at this, but i came across this not long after the election, and thought it was interesting. it's kind of the Tony Soprano theory.

the gist:

Male dominance actually requires a pretty delicate balance, Glick said. If men want to maintain the control over women they’ve enjoyed for thousands of years, and continue their species, and satisfy their desires for heterosexual love and companionship, they can’t just use brute force. They need women to actually like them and not resent their dominance.

And so a compromise emerged — or at least a “protection racket,” as Glick calls it, like when the Mafioso tells the businessman he’d hate to see his nice shop burn down, so why don’t they make a deal.

The basic agreement is that as long as women cater to men’s needs, men will protect and cherish women in return. If women have few good options for independent success, this is a pretty good deal — which explains why in more overtly sexist societies where women have fewer opportunities, cross-national studies show that women endorse benevolent sexism at even higher rates than men do.

This may also help explain why Trump maintained high levels of support among white women voters who don’t have a college degree — a group Trump won 62 percent to 34, and a group whose career opportunities are probably more limited. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton totally reversed 2012’s partisan gender gap among college-educated white women. (A demographic Clinton won by 51 to 45 percent, and Romney won 52 to 46 against Obama.)

But the most powerful gendered element of Trump’s campaign may actually lie in his fear-mongering.

“Trump's strategy was to ramp up anxiety about a dark, dangerous world,” Glick said. “When women are under threat, their benevolent sexism scores go up.”

Specifically, he said, showing women survey data about men’s hostile sexism makes women more likely to endorse benevolent sexism out of psychological self-defense. It may be ironic to turn to men for protection from male hostility, but it’s how the cycle works.

This also helps explain why so many women hold sexist biases against women, Glick said. If women themselves enforce gender norms and punish deviants, it reinforces the social order that guarantees them protection. And it separates them from the “bad” women who are deemed unworthy of that protection.

But that protection can still come with a cost, Glick said — which is also where sexist stereotypes about men factor in. The idea that men have to be providers and protectors, Glick said, goes hand in hand with the “boys will be boys” attitude that’s often used to excuse men’s bad behavior.

“Men are bad but bold. That’s the stereotype,” Glick said. “He’s not a very good protector if he can't beat up on other men.”

Glick said that Trump’s more positive masculine traits — boldness, change, willingness to defy tradition — may be seen as inextricably linked with his more negative ones, like his boorishness and cruelty. Trump may not be a nice guy, the thinking goes, and we may not like some of the things he says. But that just comes with the territory if you want a strong male leader.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016...-president-sexual-assault-sexism-misogyny-won

 

[Iggy Fizz]

If the goal is to prevent him from entering the White House, there was a best way to do that. It also would have sent a message that racism and sexual assault are, actually, bad things and should be the defining characteristics of the POTUS.

I know many Republicans — the country club/chamber of commerce type — who voted for HRC.

I also know many dipshits who felt that voting Johnson or Stein was somehow a noble act because they wanted to protest the two party system.

Because the two parties are exactly the same. Aren’t they.

We all see that now. Totally the same. The two parties. Can’t tell a difference.

wow, you must sleep well knowing you have all the answers.

 

[Iggy Fizz]

Trump is a shit stain on the entire world.

Those who voted for him deserve no better. The rest of us, however, have to carry this fetid stench for who knows how long. We are all worse for having to live through this.

plenty of people who voted for Trump did so for very valid reasons, even if those of you who frequent this echo chamber will never acknowledge that.

the real problem is the people who continue their willful blindness to the shitstorm that this administration has turned out to be.

but I do encourage people to perhaps consider a potential positive outcome. the Repub party is being forced to change because of the current and building attack from Trump's junkyard dogs. That's not a bad thing if it gets us closer to multi-party system, or gets the GOP to move closer to the center. Surely, the Dems moving even further left is not a good thing.

 

[Irvine511]

wow, you must sleep well knowing you have all the answers.

Knowing that third party voters put Trump in office is hardly having all the answers.

 

[BVS]

plenty of people who voted for Trump did so for very valid reasons, even if those of you who frequent this echo chamber will never acknowledge that.

Besides being a vote against Clinton, can you explain just one valid reason?

 

[mama cass]

evangelical/fundie white women + rural, uneducated white women

my aunt fits this description exactly, very wealthy, born-again Christian, husband a pentecostal pastor at one time, all about appearances - incredibly fake beautiful/glamorous, but ugly as hell inside and a complete and utter bitch to people her whole life - she told me she was a very strong supporter of "President Trump" and i have had nothing to do with her since - the hypocrisy is astounding - we are from a family of immigrants, but i guess as her side of the family are White European immigrants she doesn't give a shit or attempt to relate or understand - it's sickening

eta - i doubt she submitted to her husband as she is queen of their household and completely rules the roost - he is a meek and mild-mannered man and worships the ground she walks on, and she wasn't raised in a gun toting environment - she's just a rich, evangelical Republican of the very worst kind, with no scruples and anti-everything she can't see in her own fucking mirror - a lot of them are probably like that

 

[DaveC]

Besides being a vote against Clinton, can you explain just one valid reason?

i don't think it's correct to say with such certainty that there was no valid reason whatsoever for anyone to vote for any particular candidate in a free and fair election.

 

[BVS]

i don't think it's correct to say with such certainty that there was no valid reason whatsoever for anyone to vote for any particular candidate in a free and fair election.

I haven’t said that, I’m just asking for an example.

Isn’t that fair to do so in a free and fair forum?

 

[DaveC]

of course, as far as i'm concerned you can ask anything here as long as you're willing to have an open mind in regards to the answers you get.

i've just seen it said here so many times that there was absolutely no legitimate reason whatsoever for anyone to vote for trump (or even any third party candidate) and that everyone who did so is morally bankrupt, as if there wasn't only two legitimate candidates to choose from. it's getting tiresome.

but i know you didn't say any of that. i thought you were going down this road with your line of questioning and if i jumped the gun, my bad.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I personally have no problem with the people who voted for third party candidates. My biggest issue when it comes to some third party supporters is that I sometimes feel like they don't really stop to think about all the other things that would need to change in order to make third parties more viable options. Just going down and putting your favorite third party candidate's name on the ballot and leaving it at that isn't going to be enough to suddenly make third parties a thing, and change the system.

(And I'm speaking in general terms here with the above statement, by the way. That's not directed at any third party supporters in this particular forum.)

But even taking that into account, at least the third party candidates in this last election, and in most elections in general, have had some level of experience (or a desire to learn and gain experience), and things of that sort, to where, had a miracle happened and one of them had won, I would've been okay with that. At least the people who voted for them were still voting for people who actually had some proper understanding of and respect for the job they were running for. I can't take issue with that.

With Trump, however, I truly cannot fathom how anyone thought he was a good candidate for them even if they had valid stances on the issues. Okay, they want better economic policies. I can totally sympathize with that. What I don't get, though, is how the hell they thought Trump, of all the potential options available to them, was going to be the one to make that happen. Okay, they want a better handle on the immigration issue. They seriously believed Trump was capable and smart enough to handle that issue?

That's the part that continues to mystify me. With all of Trump's chaotic blunder, blatant, proud ignorance of anything resembling policy and how the government works, crippling narcissism (a guy that self-absorbed is never going to give a shit about anyone else), and so on, what on earth about any of that made people look at him and go, "Yep, he's somebody I trust to run our country and help us with our problems."?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

plenty of people who voted for Trump did so for very valid reasons, even if those of you who frequent this echo chamber will never acknowledge that.

the real problem is the people who continue their willful blindness to the shitstorm that this administration has turned out to be.

but I do encourage people to perhaps consider a potential positive outcome. the Repub party is being forced to change because of the current and building attack from Trump's junkyard dogs. That's not a bad thing if it gets us closer to multi-party system, or gets the GOP to move closer to the center. Surely, the Dems moving even further left is not a good thing.

I agree with the sentiment that there were valid reasons why people thought they should vote Republican, or to not vote for Hillary that weren't related to sexism.

Where we part is the idea that there was a valid reason to vote for Donald Trump

The warning signs of, as you put it yourself, the shitstorm weren't just there, they were glowing like the fire of a thousand suns.

Every reason behind this administration being a shitstorm was clear as day during the campaign. Everything... Russia, sexual assault and harassment, shady dealings in his past, abnormal behavior, the inability to stay on track, the tendency to lash out, the casual and sometimes blatant racism. ALL OF IT WAS THERE.

I've voted Republican more than I've voted Democrat. My ideal candidate has always been a wealthy non politician who flip flops between Democratic and Republican - Mike Bloomberg.

Donald Trump is a disgrace to this nation, and only someone who was wilfully blind to these facts wouldn't have noticed how disgraceful he was and is during the campaign.

There was no good reason to vote for this man. None.

 

[Bluer White]

my aunt fits this description exactly, very wealthy, born-again Christian, husband a pentecostal pastor at one time, all about appearances - incredibly fake beautiful/glamorous, but ugly as hell inside and a complete and utter bitch to people her whole life - she told me she was a very strong supporter of "President Trump" and i have had nothing to do with her since - the hypocrisy is astounding - we are from a family of immigrants, but i guess as her side of the family are White European immigrants she doesn't give a shit or attempt to relate or understand - it's sickening

eta - i doubt she submitted to her husband as she is queen of their household and completely rules the roost - he is a meek and mild-mannered man and worships the ground she walks on, and she wasn't raised in a gun toting environment - she's just a rich, evangelical Republican of the very worst kind, with no scruples and anti-everything she can't see in her own fucking mirror - a lot of them are probably like that

Having a decent relationship with your immediate relatives can be a challenge sometimes....most of us have been there. My own experience is that it's usually worth the effort in the end, especially if the split is just because of politics.

But again, not always easy as that.

 

[BEAL]

My pressing issue at the moment

How do i get another date to share with FYM????

 

[kiwilad]

My pressing issue at the moment

How do i get another date to share with FYM????

There's an incredibly intelligent surfer activist you could ask.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

My pressing issue at the moment

How do i get another date to share with FYM????

Idea for a socially catastrophic but wallet packing app...

Tinder, but photos are tinted red or blue.

 

[Vincent Vega]

of course, as far as i'm concerned you can ask anything here as long as you're willing to have an open mind in regards to the answers you get.

i've just seen it said here so many times that there was absolutely no legitimate reason whatsoever for anyone to vote for trump (or even any third party candidate) and that everyone who did so is morally bankrupt, as if there wasn't only two legitimate candidates to choose from. it's getting tiresome.

but i know you didn't say any of that. i thought you were going down this road with your line of questioning and if i jumped the gun, my bad.

Call me tainted by history, but yes, there are politicians/political parties for which there is no legitimate reason to give them their vote, whatsoever. Voting third party or write-in I have some level of sympathy for, thinking that they had the best of intentions, yet were incredibly naive.

The idea of a better Republican party being formed from the rubble after Trump is out of the office is lovely, weren't it for the very real and devastating consequences for so many people not only in the US, but also worldwide.

It's amazing to see how General Kelly has fallen entirely in line . Apparently taking cues from Trump, he is now going after Representative Wilson spreading easily refutable lies about her for her daring to critizise the leader publically:

White House Chief of Staff John Kelly lied on Thursday when he falsely claimed that Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-Fla., had loudly boasted about obtaining money for an FBI building in Miami during a dedication ceremony he attended in 2015.

As my colleague Shaun King writes, that Kelly said he was enraged by Wilson’s remarks as she made them...

What she in fact did:

Instead, she gave credit to politicians of both parties and went on to acknowledge the heroism of the agents who were killed in a shootout with two bank robbers. “Today, it is our patriotic duty to lift up Special Agent Benjamin Grogan and Special Agent Jerry Dove from the street in South Florida, and place their names and pictures high, where the world will know that we are proud of their sacrifice, their sacrifice for our nation,” Wilson said.

She also asked all of those in law enforcement and first responders present at the ceremony to stand for a round of applause. “Stand up now, so that we can applaud you and what you do,” Wilson said. “Stand up, we are proud of you, we’re proud of your courage. Thank you.”

So in effect, he lies about her character in order to silence her, by which he himself shows utter disrespect for the two officers killed. Collateral damage I guess. But he doesn't stop there:

Speaking in the White House briefing room a day earlier, Kelly made his false claim as part of an attack on Wilson’s character, after a broader lament about what he described as a collapse in moral values and insufficient respect for the military from American civilians.

Watch: Kelly laments how Gold Star families are no longer considered sacred after summer presidential conventions

“When I was a kid growing up, a lot of things were sacred in our country,” Kelly said...

To summarize: He laments that the sacredness of "Gold Star families" has gone out the window, seemingly forgetting that it was Trump himself who shattered this sacredness single-handedly. (Sentiments like that generally send me back to my first sentence in this post.)

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/20/lets-compare-john-kellys-lie-rep-frederica-wilson-reality/

 

[DaveC]

Call me tainted by history, but yes, there are politicians/political parties for which there is no legitimate reason to give them their vote, whatsoever. Voting third party or write-in I have some level of sympathy for, thinking that they had the best of intentions, yet were incredibly naive.

in a multi party system yes, this could be true. but in a two party system to say that everyone who voted opposite from you had no legitimate reason (moral, political, practical, whatever) to do so when there were only two options with any chance of winning is straight up jacobinism.


note that i'm only talking about mainstream parties here, not joe running for president under the marxist-leninist-khmer my little pony child enslavement party.

 

[BVS]

https://www.salon.com/2017/10/20/tr...ft-retired-pilots-back-into-military-service/

Any guesses to the point of this?