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Old 10-22-2017, 12:19 AM   #141
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Fuck. See, you live there. I don't. And this shit is scary enough at the bottom of NZ. I'm sorry if I came off as a bit flippant.



Your point is completely right, in my opinion. But, it comes back to democracy. Can a democracy really work if not all voters are aware of, or capable of being aware of, or even interested in being aware of, the salient facts?



I really don't know.


It’s really a scary question. I think we’ve seen that Russia was clearly feeding alternative facts to a credulous audience in an attempt to gaslight democracy itself. I don’t know if democracy can survive that. I’m still hopeful that 2016 was an aberration, and the total lack of any substantial legislation by Trump means that this won’t happen again. And I do think there are people around him who know their job is containment.

We’ll see. What do you do when no one agrees upon the same reality?
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Old 10-22-2017, 12:47 AM   #142
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The great irony here is the US (and the rest of the West, to be fair) have been encouraging and at times forcing democracy on countries who perhaps weren't equipped to deal with it.

Now the US, and you could argue Britain with Brexit, have come face to face with what democracy is like when the flow of information to the voters is corrupted.

Is this what democracy as an idea felt like in those other countries when NZ and American and British troops forced it on them?
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Old 10-22-2017, 01:34 AM   #143
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So, I don’t work in politics, but I know people who do. It’s been told to me (drunkenly, late at night) by people who may know these things that the Trumps will all wind up in jail.

Take that for what you will.
Boy, wouldn't that be the utmost irony, given all the "lock her up!" chanting we heard last year.

Seriously, though, I know we can't afford to rush any of these investigations into Trump and his family, of course, for obvious reasons, and I very much appreciate the time and effort and thoroughness being put into all of this. But if there is indeed any actual truth to what those people have told you, or whether the Trumps actually go to jail or are just forced to leave the White House...can it happen as soon as humanly possible?
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:51 AM   #144
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in a multi party system yes, this could be true. but in a two party system to say that everyone who voted opposite from you had no legitimate reason (moral, political, practical, whatever) to do so when there were only two options with any chance of winning is straight up jacobinism.


note that i'm only talking about mainstream parties here, not joe running for president under the marxist-leninist-khmer my little pony child enslavement party.
In the US election you could support the Republicans, without explicitly giving your vote to Trump.
In a two-party system it's a dilemma, but if one candidate is Trump there is one realistic choice to avoid evil, which is going for the other main candidate, and a less realistic choice of going for third-party or write-in.
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:57 AM   #145
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In the US election you could support the Republicans, without explicitly giving your vote to Trump.
In a two-party system it's a dilemma, but if one candidate is Trump there is one realistic choice to avoid evil, which is going for the other main candidate, and a less realistic choice of going for third-party or write-in.
Yeah. Voters who had always been Republican, believed in Republican values, didn't want Trump as their candidate, who hated Clinton, were in a shit spot. They really were.

I'm sure a lot of them just presumed he would have to fit himself into the presidential cloak, so to speak, as opposed to making the cloak fit him.
I remember that day he sat beside Obama, looking a little shellshocked, talkign with contrition and humility. I thought, for a moment, the campaign had been more rhetoric than reality. And I bet a lot of Trump's voters thought that too.

Of course he's a complete fucking asshole. He hurts people, and enjoys it. And I'm sure people are regretting their vote - whether they'd admit that or not.

But I don't find it that difficult to understand them giving the vote in the first place.
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Old 10-22-2017, 08:42 AM   #146
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Any one see the report that a Snr admin official is advising pulling "assets" out of South Korea? Also military build up by the US in the area, the Reagan etc and finally this. I know it's unconfirmed but this is insane and terrifying..... https://twitter.com/WonkVJ/status/921859016883552256
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Old 10-22-2017, 11:13 AM   #147
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Has there been any military buildup in the area? I would think that'd make some news if we were moving battleships over
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Old 10-22-2017, 11:50 AM   #148
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Has there been any military buildup in the area? I would think that'd make some news if we were moving battleships over
Yes but it's not being reported on the MSM

https://www.stripes.com/news/uss-ron...rills-1.493680


https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/us-n...n-south-korea/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/us-mil...7-10?r=US&IR=T
The Roosvelt also on its way... https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.d...ft-carrier/amp
Now there's talk of pulling out assets in SK and Trumps EO on Friday night calling for retired fighter pilots to get back into action!
http://alert5.com/2017/10/22/trump-s...etired-pilots/

This is madness.
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Old 10-22-2017, 12:48 PM   #149
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Why wouldn’t the MSM cover this ?

You seem to be really worried about this. While I think some concern is warranted there’s just no way we do a preemptive strike.
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:36 PM   #150
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Why wouldn’t the MSM cover this ?

You seem to be really worried about this. While I think some concern is warranted there’s just no way we do a preemptive strike.
Better than rolling over and letting those communist shitheads strike first.
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Old 10-22-2017, 02:39 PM   #151
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Better than rolling over and letting those communist shitheads strike first.
You're right. Of course.

Communist s**theads.
Strike first.

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Old 10-22-2017, 02:41 PM   #152
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:09 PM   #153
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I wish we could burn the term "mainstream media" with fire.
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:10 PM   #154
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To summarize: He laments that the sacredness of "Gold Star families" has gone out the window, seemingly forgetting that it was Trump himself who shattered this sacredness single-handedly. (Sentiments like that generally send me back to my first sentence in this post.)
Satirically expressing how I feel about the "You must not say a bad words about our troops":
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Warming to her subject, Sanders said that any American who sees undeniable video evidence that a general lied and chooses to believe the video “shows disrespect for our country and hatred for our flag.”

“General Kelly has served our country with courage and valor,” she said. “He has earned the right to lie without fear of being contradicted by the facts.”
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/boro...a-general-lied

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Yeah. Voters who had always been Republican, believed in Republican values, didn't want Trump as their candidate, who hated Clinton, were in a shit spot. They really were.

I'm sure a lot of them just presumed he would have to fit himself into the presidential cloak, so to speak, as opposed to making the cloak fit him.
I remember that day he sat beside Obama, looking a little shellshocked, talkign with contrition and humility. I thought, for a moment, the campaign had been more rhetoric than reality. And I bet a lot of Trump's voters thought that too.

Of course he's a complete fucking asshole. He hurts people, and enjoys it. And I'm sure people are regretting their vote - whether they'd admit that or not.

But I don't find it that difficult to understand them giving the vote in the first place.
I think a lot of it is a belief that it can't happen to us, meaning that the US haven't experienced a full-fledged democratic crisis (Nixon was close, but in the end it could be contained), so there's an idea that no matter who gets into the White House, it won't be devastating. Then there were all these naive enough to believe that a 70 year old would change his ways suddenly. But in the end it boils down to what has been said often enough: By casting a vote for Trump, it was also an implicit legitimization of all the hate-filled statements, the dog whistling and so on.
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:16 PM   #155
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Better than rolling over and letting those communist shitheads strike first.
Of course. The US strikes NK and then NK retaliates and nukes Seoul, Tokyo and sends a few of their nuke tipped ICBMs to the west coast of the States where you'd have a coin toss chance of missile defenses intercepting one (nevermind a few). With the pressure(Trump crazyness) KJU is being put under he might miscalculate one of the stupid B1B exercises or carrier drills and think he's being attacked and strike first anyway. Any preemptive counterforce action by the US will almost certainly see someone being nuked.
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:38 PM   #156
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Of course. The US strikes NK and then NK retaliates and nukes Seoul, Tokyo and sends a few of their nuke tipped ICBMs to the west coast of the States where you'd have a coin toss chance of missile defenses intercepting one (nevermind a few). With the pressure(Trump crazyness) KJU is being put under he might miscalculate one of the stupid B1B exercises or carrier drills and think he's being attacked and strike first anyway. Any preemptive counterforce action by the US will almost certainly see someone being nuked.
Don't forget the daleks. North Korea have been developing daleks.

Wish the fannys in the mainstream media would report on this shit.
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:50 PM   #157
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Don't forget the daleks. North Korea have been developing daleks.

Wish the fannys in the mainstream media would report on this shit.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cr...VoSK6h86pnAlM:
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Old 10-22-2017, 04:27 PM   #158
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Old 10-22-2017, 05:03 PM   #159
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Of course. The US strikes NK and then NK retaliates and nukes Seoul, Tokyo and sends a few of their nuke tipped ICBMs to the west coast of the States where you'd have a coin toss chance of missile defenses intercepting one (nevermind a few).
Wait, can they actually aim their nukes with any sort of accuracy? I thought that was the whole point, every test they do is a failure in some way...
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Old 10-22-2017, 05:11 PM   #160
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Wait, can they actually aim their nukes with any sort of accuracy? I thought that was the whole point, every test they do is a failure in some way...
Of course they can. The IRBM Hwasong 12 has landed where they wanted it to the last couple of times, good enough to hit Tokyo or Seoul or even Guam. The ICBM Hwasong 14 is pretty much there, range is enough to hit LA or even New York or Washington. All they need is a re-entry vehicle which they will probably show that they have during their next test (hopefully not an airburst in the Pacific like China did an NK are threatening to do) They've got thermonuclear bombs now which noone expected they had or could engineer. The US IC has said the US government has to expect that they can successfully hit the US already. And anyway you don't need to be entirely accurate when you're chucking a thermo nuke around.
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