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Old 12-03-2017, 05:37 PM   #901
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I get what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree... but the guy sleeps with teenagers.

If disagreeing with that makes one an east coast elite, well, there's no winning with these people under any circumstance.
People who sexually abuse anyone especially minors should be called out regardless of which party they belong to. But I agree that this disgusting pig Moore is trolling kimmel so that he insults Moore and then he can play victim. It’s pretty disgusting especially since his base, much like trumps base will eat up any claim they make.
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:09 PM   #902
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I get what you're saying, and I don't necessarily disagree... but the guy sleeps with teenagers.

If disagreeing with that makes one an east coast elite, well, there's no winning with these people under any circumstance.
This. At some point, stupidity and ignorance has to be called out for what it is. If some voters have a problem with that, well, that's more their issue at this point than anything else, for refusing to listen to facts and reason and logic.

It's horrifying that somebody as nasty and creepy as Moore actually has a valid chance of winning an election simply because his voters want to stick it to the liberals, or want to push their extreme right-wing agenda. We've already seen how that's played out with Trump. We don't need individual states repeating that scenario, too.

Besides that, Kimmel's a comedian. His whole job is to mock and poke fun at people in general. If they know Kimmel is bating them, then don't rise to the occasion and leave it at that. Kimmel will have no reason to respond after that.

(To say nothing of the fact that since supporters of people like Trump and Moore actively cheer those guys when they go around mocking and insulting people, and laugh at voters who disagree with them, it seems awfully hypocritical of them to get all bent out of shape when they're on the receiving end of similar behavior. They're the ones who wanted to usher in an era of being "non-PC" and "telling it like it is", after all, and anyone who complained about people like Trump and Moore hurting their feelings was just an "overly sensitive snowflake". So they really don't have any room to complain. They can't have it both ways.)
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:44 PM   #903
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This. At some point, stupidity and ignorance has to be called out for what it is. If some voters have a problem with that, well, that's more their issue at this point than anything else, for refusing to listen to facts and reason and logic.
Hmmmm. Well, no. It's not "their" issue. They can vote for who they want. If they send Moore to the US Senate it's going to be the country's issue. I mean, I have no problem calling out stupidity and ignorance, I'm just pointing out that doing so can have a political cost (e.g. the deplorable comment). That's why Moore's opponent isn't insulting the people of Alabama the way Kimmel is.

I mean, seriously, your whole comment is...if they don't like what Kimmel says, tough. They have to shut up and take it. Well, actually, no, they don't. Again, they can say fuck you at the ballot box. Then how funny is Kimmel?

Anyway, none of that is Kimmel's concern. He's not a leader of the resistance. He's not a hero. He's a comedian on TV.

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It's horrifying that somebody as nasty and creepy as Moore actually has a valid chance of winning an election simply because his voters want to stick it to the liberals, or want to push their extreme right-wing agenda. We've already seen how that's played out with Trump. We don't need individual states repeating that scenario, too.
Well, there's more to it than just "sticking it to liberals." They're making a choice to send someone who they might find personally reprehensible, but is pro-life (something VERY important to them), pro-Trumps agenda, and will vote for more conservative justices on the court. What are the supposed to do? Send someone to the Senate who is going work contrary to their own political values? Send a reliable pro-choice vote to Congress who is going to vote against Trump's judicial appointees? Really?

Let's put it another way. Suppose for a moment that Franken was accused of what Moore is, and he was running for re-election against a Republican with a squeaky clean personal life but politically is aligned with Trump. The Senate is at a razor thin margin and Franken's could be the deciding vote. And that seat could mean control of the Senate in a couple years. The lives of millions of people in terms of tax and social policy could be impacted for generations. This person could be crucial in whether the next SCOTUS justice gets confirmed, something that will redound for decades.

And you're going to...what? Vote for the Republican because he doesn't have personal baggage? Or will you just not vote, which is a defacto vote for the Republican? Is your personal problem with something a guy was accused of doing decades ago more important than the future of the country? Is your own precious sense of morality more important than stopping Trump's agenda?

Please don't take this personally, I'm not having a go at you, I'm just telling you...that's the choice they're making in Alabama. And make no mistake, that's how they look at it. Sticking it to people like Kimmel is just a nice side-effect. You and I may disagree with their political priorities and values, but why should they send a guy to the Senate from a party they otherwise despise? Especially when they've probably concluded that Congress is already full of sexual sleazebags (and who could blame them). I think they're slightly more sophisticated as voters then we give them credit for. That's strategic voting. There's going to be a lot of self-righteous talk on social media if Moore wins about about what hypocritical Christians Alabamans are for voting for someone like Moore, but I'll call bullshit on that, when from their POV the alternative is sending someone who will be a consistent pro-choice vote in Congress.

And as I've said before, this is the deal progressives and feminists made with Bill Clinton in the 90's. Whatever issues they might have with his sleazy personal life, they were willing to overlook them because he advanced their agenda. No, I'm not comparing Clinton to Moore...but the principal remains the same. You're sticking with the guy who's going to advance the political agenda you believe in, rather than helping the other side.

All that said, of course Moore may still lose, I hope he does.
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:54 PM   #904
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Kimmel is a "hero" for me in the sense that he's a rich guy who spoke the truth about health care. That NO ONE ' S CHILD should die in this country because their parents don't have money or health care. If that's an elitist statement then we truly are fucked. It's MAGA to not care about such things, I guess.

Wait until these anti elitists have sick children that they can't get proper treatment for because Trump and all the other Republicans screw them over. I hope that doesn't happen to anyone, but the truth is it's going to.

Kimmel is a very rich man who doesn't live by the philosophy of I have mine so screw everybody else. For that he's my "hero". Trump lives by that philosophy, and so do so many Republicans who are oh so very "Christian".
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:03 PM   #905
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Hmmmm. Well, no. It's not "their" issue. They can vote for who they want. If they send Moore to the US Senate it's going to be the country's issue. I mean, I have no problem calling out stupidity and ignorance, I'm just pointing out that doing so can have a political cost (e.g. the deplorable comment). That's why Moore's opponent isn't insulting the people of Alabama the way Kimmel is.

I mean, seriously, your whole comment is...if they don't like what Kimmel says, tough. They have to shut up and take it. Well, actually, no, they don't. Again, they can say fuck you at the ballot box. Then how funny is Kimmel?

Anyway, none of that is Kimmel's concern. He's not a leader of the resistance. He's not a hero. He's a comedian on TV.



Well, there's more to it than just "sticking it to liberals." They're making a choice to send someone who they might find personally reprehensible, but is pro-life (something VERY important to them), pro-Trumps agenda, and will vote for more conservative justices on the court. What are the supposed to do? Send someone to the Senate who is going work contrary to their own political values? Send a reliable pro-choice vote to Congress who is going to vote against Trump's judicial appointees? Really?

Let's put it another way. Suppose for a moment that Franken was accused of what Moore is, and he was running for re-election against a Republican with a squeaky clean personal life but politically is aligned with Trump. The Senate is at a razor thin margin and Franken's could be the deciding vote. And that seat could mean control of the Senate in a couple years. The lives of millions of people in terms of tax and social policy could be impacted for generations. This person could be crucial in whether the next SCOTUS justice gets confirmed, something that will redound for decades.

And you're going to...what? Vote for the Republican because he doesn't have personal baggage? Or will you just not vote, which is a defacto vote for the Republican? Is your personal problem with something a guy was accused of doing decades ago more important than the future of the country? Is your own precious sense of morality more important than stopping Trump's agenda?

Please don't take this personally, I'm not having a go at you, I'm just telling you...that's the choice they're making in Alabama. And make no mistake, that's how they look at it. Sticking it to people like Kimmel is just a nice side-effect. You and I may disagree with their political priorities and values, but why should they send a guy to the Senate from a party they otherwise despise? Especially when they've probably concluded that Congress is already full of sexual sleazebags (and who could blame them). I think they're slightly more sophisticated as voters then we give them credit for. That's strategic voting. There's going to be a lot of self-righteous talk on social media if Moore wins about about what hypocritical Christians Alabamans are for voting for someone like Moore, but I'll call bullshit on that, when from their POV the alternative is sending someone who will be a consistent pro-choice vote in Congress.

And as I've said before, this is the deal progressives and feminists made with Bill Clinton in the 90's. Whatever issues they might have with his sleazy personal life, they were willing to overlook them because he advanced their agenda. No, I'm not comparing Clinton to Moore...but the principal remains the same. You're sticking with the guy who's going to advance the political agenda you believe in, rather than helping the other side.

All that said, of course Moore may still lose, I hope he does.
They're supposed to not vote for a child molester.

There's not a single person on Earth, or Alabama, who said "ya know, I wasn't going to vote for him because he has sex with teenagers... but ya know what? Now I will, cause fuck Jimmy Kimmel."

That person, even if they say that, would have voted for the child molester anyways. In the name of Jesus.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:08 PM   #906
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They're supposed to not vote for a child molester.

There's not a single person on Earth, or Alabama, who said "ya know, I wasn't going to vote for him because he has sex with teenagers... but ya know what? Now I will, cause fuck Jimmy Kimmel."

That person, even if they say that, would have voted for the child molester anyways. In the name of Jesus.
Sure. But if a bunch of people still won't vote Democrats, even when the alternative is Moore and Trump, isn't that a signal the Democrats are doing something horribly wrong?
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:14 PM   #907
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Sure. But if a bunch of people still won't vote Democrats, even when the alternative is Moore and Trump, isn't that a signal the Democrats are doing something horribly wrong?
No.

I'm not a Democrat. I'll vote democrat over these assholes.

It's a signal that there's a shit load of racist, misogynist people in this country, many of whom are still bitter over losing the civil war.

Unfortunately, partly because of gerrymandering, partly because of the system that we have that gives the rural vote more power than the urban vote, these asshats have more sway than they should.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:15 PM   #908
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US Politics IV

A good number of them don’t even believe he’s a child molester. They’ve been told so often that the media lies and holds them in contempt they don’t know what to believe. And a lot of them are probably in denial. And lot put their political priorities first.

Whether you, I or Jimmy Kimmel agree is utterly irrelevant. Though I do think you’re underestimating the degree to which many voters vote against rather than for something.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:17 PM   #909
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The Democrats are doing plenty of things wrong. But the flip side is wondering even if they did everything right would it matter?

Look at the tax cuts. The vast majority of people who voted for Trump will actually see their taxes go up. But they somehow believed it would be the opposite. And I bet they still believe that. They believe that it's all just made up lies to make their working class hero look bad.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:22 PM   #910
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And because the human mind doesn’t really like to be wrong, feel pain, or have their deeply held beliefs proven false, it’ll just avert even harder from the truth to protect itself.

So these people who voted for Trump and will either lose their healthcare, have taxes go up, or both will justify it by any means necessary.

Blame Obama
Blame Democrats
Trust that Trump is doing the right thing
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:29 PM   #911
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In the short term their taxes will go down. If the GOP bill ends up becoming law, most taxpayers will see the amount of taxes being withheld from their pay checks go down starting in January. The bill is designed that way. They're also hoping that there will be a short term stimulative effect on the economy next year. The bill's designed for that as well (no matter what long term havoc it may play on the economy). There are, after all, elections in November.

Health care is another matter and the bill as it stands will repeal the ACA's individual mandate. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:15 PM   #912
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g

Please don't take this personally, I'm not having a go at you, I'm just telling you...that's the choice they're making in Alabama.
Look, we get it, we're not stupid. It's not rocket science what they are voting for.

And no, I would not vote for a man who molested/assaulted minor girls. Jesus Christ, do you have children? I do and no thanks. I'd abstain from voting and if that's a direct vote for the other party, well at least I didn't vote for a child molester. I'm sorry but there are lines to be drawn in the sand and if you're a person for whom this isn't a line then you're a piece of shit in my view, Alabama voter.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:29 PM   #913
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I have no problem believing that a good chunk of Moore voters don't believe the accusations. They don't think they are voting for a child molster, they believe they are voting for someone they think has been falsely accused.

And of course there are some who don't care if he did it or not, because they won't vote for a pro-life/dem candidate.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:10 PM   #914
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/0...paign.amp.html

I find this to be one of the more disturbing findings over the weekend. It goes to show just how powerful the NRA really is, and how their reach goes beyond just the national level.

This was still happening during the transition; what I found to be the most disturbing was that the Rep operative on the Sunday shows just kept going on about how it wasn’t illegal, but it was completely unprecedented. If Obama had done this during his transition can you imagine the anger?
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:01 PM   #915
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Hmmmm. Well, no. It's not "their" issue. They can vote for who they want. If they send Moore to the US Senate it's going to be the country's issue. I mean, I have no problem calling out stupidity and ignorance, I'm just pointing out that doing so can have a political cost (e.g. the deplorable comment). That's why Moore's opponent isn't insulting the people of Alabama the way Kimmel is.
Oh, for sure, Moore's election would be an issue for the country at large. I meant "it's their issue" in the sense that at some point they can't keep blaming everyone else for their ignorance, and can't keep riding on the "mean coastal liberals are insulting us" as their excuse for their behavior, forever. Their refusal to acknowledge blatant facts when they're staring them right in the face, and being so openly proud of their ignorance, is a big part of the problem, too.

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I mean, seriously, your whole comment is...if they don't like what Kimmel says, tough. They have to shut up and take it. Well, actually, no, they don't. Again, they can say fuck you at the ballot box. Then how funny is Kimmel?
No, I'm not saying they have to shut up and take it. I'm just noting that this is what they wanted, a country where people said what they wanted without regard for anyone else's feelings. They can complain about Kimmel and his preaching and whatnot all they want. I'm just pointing out how ludicrous it is for them to complain about that, considering they see nothing wrong with people like Trump or Moore going around insulting people, and cheer them on when they do.

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Anyway, none of that is Kimmel's concern. He's not a leader of the resistance. He's not a hero. He's a comedian on TV.
This is true. I appreciate him not staying quiet on these issues and making noise, but yeah, "hero" is a term that shouldn't be tossed around lightly.

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Well, there's more to it than just "sticking it to liberals." They're making a choice to send someone who they might find personally reprehensible, but is pro-life (something VERY important to them), pro-Trumps agenda, and will vote for more conservative justices on the court. What are the supposed to do? Send someone to the Senate who is going work contrary to their own political values? Send a reliable pro-choice vote to Congress who is going to vote against Trump's judicial appointees? Really?
Or, they could do a write-in vote instead, or wait for another race where somebody who doesn't have Moore's baggage can run to push their agenda.

There's also the fact that even if the Democratic candidate running is pro-choice, there are some other Democrats out there who are pro-life as well. And there's also plenty of pro-choice Democrats who would be willing to work with pro-lifers and find good compromises to make both sides happy to some degree. So it's not exactly like they'd have no opportunity to get any of what they want going forward if the other guy wins.

There's just no defense for supporting Moore. None. I don't care if a voter agrees 100% with his policies. He's an absolute creep who has zero regard for the law in general, and he has no business being in office.

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Let's put it another way. Suppose for a moment that Franken was accused of what Moore is, and he was running for re-election against a Republican with a squeaky clean personal life but politically is aligned with Trump. The Senate is at a razor thin margin and Franken's could be the deciding vote. And that seat could mean control of the Senate in a couple years. The lives of millions of people in terms of tax and social policy could be impacted for generations. This person could be crucial in whether the next SCOTUS justice gets confirmed, something that will redound for decades.

And you're going to...what? Vote for the Republican because he doesn't have personal baggage? Or will you just not vote, which is a defacto vote for the Republican? Is your personal problem with something a guy was accused of doing decades ago more important than the future of the country? Is your own precious sense of morality more important than stopping Trump's agenda?
I probably wouldn't vote for the Republican if they were full on Trump-level/far-right politically aligned, no. In that case, I'd put down a write-in vote instead. I just could not vote for a Democrat who was accused of molesting young girls. I don't care how long ago the accusations were. There's some lines you just do not cross.

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Please don't take this personally, I'm not having a go at you, I'm just telling you...that's the choice they're making in Alabama. And make no mistake, that's how they look at it. Sticking it to people like Kimmel is just a nice side-effect. You and I may disagree with their political priorities and values, but why should they send a guy to the Senate from a party they otherwise despise?
Because he's not being accused of child molestation. Simple.

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Especially when they've probably concluded that Congress is already full of sexual sleazebags (and who could blame them).
Indeed, they would be right in that assumption. So my question in that case is, why send more and further add to that messy situation?

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I think they're slightly more sophisticated as voters then we give them credit for. That's strategic voting. There's going to be a lot of self-righteous talk on social media if Moore wins about about what hypocritical Christians Alabamans are for voting for someone like Moore, but I'll call bullshit on that, when from their POV the alternative is sending someone who will be a consistent pro-choice vote in Congress.

And as I've said before, this is the deal progressives and feminists made with Bill Clinton in the 90's. Whatever issues they might have with his sleazy personal life, they were willing to overlook them because he advanced their agenda. No, I'm not comparing Clinton to Moore...but the principal remains the same. You're sticking with the guy who's going to advance the political agenda you believe in, rather than helping the other side.
And I just think at some point there needs to be a line. We can't keep excusing people's horrid behavior just so we can get our way politically. That's how we wind up with nutjobs like Trump.

The Moore voters can learn to work just fine with a pro-choice candidate who, for all we know, may agree with them, or be willing to work with them on other important issues. The pro-choice candidate could also remind them that there are other valid ways to try and reduce the amount of abortions out there, ways that are far less outlandish than what Moore proposes and which would actually work. This would be a positive opportunity to show that being pro-choice =/= being pro-abortion. If pushing their agenda is what conservative Alabamans truly care about, then there's all sorts of other things they could do going forward that don't involve supporting Moore in this election.

And forget about the "how can they call themselves Christians?" angle, I'd go even farther and argue that it's awfully hypocritical to claim to care so much about saving and protecting unborn children while simultaneously voting for a guy who's been accused of molesting young girls.

As for Clinton, I was eight in 1992 when he was elected, so thankfully I didn't have to be involved in that difficult choice back then. But I think both Democrats and Republicans need to learn to set lines with this kind of stuff going forward. If my refusal to vote for a Democrat means the Republican wins, sure, that sucks for me and others on the left. But in that case, I will simply then continue to do my part to protest any legislation that Republican passes that I disagree with. Or, if the Republican happens to be a moderate one, maybe I could find a way to work and compromise with them where possible. And I would continue to participate in future elections and continue to support other Democrats where possible, in order to try and help get the balance back in our favor. It may not solve all the problems, no, but at least I'd be trying to do what I could.

I get what you're saying on many levels. Believe you me, I want our country to move back to the left as much as the next Democrat/liberal. I long for the day when we can leave this whole Trump/Moore style mess behind and get back to a less crazy world. But I just do not think my conscience could handle knowing I voted for a Democrat who was accused of child molestation, or rape, or other similar crimes, simply because I wanted more liberal policies.

There's also the fact that if somebody is that abusive to people before entering political office, then they're probably not going to be decent enough human beings to do much to politically benefit my side, let alone the country at large, in general anyway. Somebody that abusive and cruel and disrespectful is in it for themselves and themselves alone, as has been made abundantly clear with Trump.

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All that said, of course Moore may still lose, I hope he does.
Agreed.

I will grant the possibility of people being in denial about the accusations, because that does tend to be a common reaction in general when this issue comes up. Even taking the denial or the belief that the molestation claims could be false into account, though, the fact remains that Moore has proven himself to be a complete asshole in the past in other ways, and has refused to cooperate with laws and been flagrantly disrespectful in many ways. Clearly he does not give a damn about listening to others and following the rules of the job he's elected to do. So how can voters think he'll give a shit about them here now?
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:05 PM   #916
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Yeah, I caught a bit of that on a different site earlier this evening. surreal
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:12 PM   #917
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As for the tax plan... Besides more people gettung higher taxes, and Corporations getting lower ones in x years the Republicans will demand serious cuts for Social Security, Social Security Disability, SSI, and more safety net programs to "cut the deficit". This what they've wanted (these kind if Repubkicans- I don't think liberal republicans [an " extinct species" as far as I know], and Conservatives have been dreaming of since FDR, then LBJ.

There are not enough curses in all human languages that can totally convey my horror and fury on this.
The Dems can possibly turn this around at some point IF they get a serious turnout for 2018/20. (I'll be trying my best)
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:13 PM   #918
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/0...paign.amp.html

I find this to be one of the more disturbing findings over the weekend. It goes to show just how powerful the NRA really is, and how their reach goes beyond just the national level.

This was still happening during the transition; what I found to be the most disturbing was that the Rep operative on the Sunday shows just kept going on about how it wasn’t illegal, but it was completely unprecedented. If Obama had done this during his transition can you imagine the anger?
That is utterly despicable. Good lord, talk about being desperate to further an agenda.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:55 AM   #919
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There's also the fact that even if the Democratic candidate running is pro-choice, there are some other Democrats out there who are pro-life as well. And there's also plenty of pro-choice Democrats who would be willing to work with pro-lifers and find good compromises to make both sides happy to some degree. So it's not exactly like they'd have no opportunity to get any of what they want going forward if the other guy wins.
On this issue of abortion, I actually think if the Democrats had nominated a pro-life candidate they'd have a much better shot at winning this election. But Jones is not only pro-choice, he's very outspokenly pro-choice and on this issue is out of touch with how most Alabama voters feel on this issue (and they feel very strongly). There's also been quite a bit of debate lately as to how open the Democratic party really is now to pro-life candidates.

Thanks for the really solid response Moonlit Angel! I appreciate & agreed with a good deal of it. And I'm glad you realised I wasn't trying to defend Moore...he's obviously despicable and I hope he loses. I actually think Moore was unqualified even before all this. The guy has no respect for the rule of law and is clearly on the fringe of most issues, even among Republicans. As far as I can tell he'd be the most extremist member of the Senate. I think the best chance for a Jones win is that Republicans just stay home. Which is what I meant when I mentioned Kimmel being a partial motivator for them to get out and vote.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:35 AM   #920
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Personally I can't process being so ardently pro life that you would ignore (consciously or subconsciously) the multiple possibilities that children were sexually molested. I'm pro the absolute and complete freedom of children to be free from sexual molestation that scars them for life. Some of them commit suicide as a direct result too. Then again I'm just an east coast "elite" who thinks of the lives of children outside the womb as well. I also loathe hypocrites who wave their Christianity around as a sword and shield while committing despicable personal deeds.
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