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Old 12-01-2017, 09:06 AM   #821
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I'm convinced that the reason a lot of people in the south and so-called "flyover states" vote for Republicans, and against their own economic interests, is because the feel (and with justification) that democrats and progressives despise them. If you see people on social media regularly calling you a racist, sexist and homophobe, and mocking your values, your religion and even the way you talk, why would you ever vote for their party?
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:19 AM   #822
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I'm convinced that the reason a lot of people in the south and so-called "flyover states" vote for Republicans, and against their own economic interests, is because the feel (and with justification) that democrats and progressives despise them. If see people on social media regularly calling you a racist, sexist and homophobe, and mocking your values, your religion and even the way you talk, why would you ever vote for their party?



That’s one component, certainly. But it also begs the question of, if you see people regularly making racist statements and freaking out about two men getting married, are you not a racist and/or bigot? So it cuts both ways. Simply because there’s resentment doesn’t mean that it’s earned or justified.

Some of it is. I spend plenty of time in a deep red part of a deep red state with people who talk about guns and believe in the Rapture. I have great affection for many of them, and I still think they’re racists. And don’t think that the mocking doesn’t go the other way, the difference being that the cultural power does reside with coastal “elites”.

The biggest divider, however, is abortion. It is *the* line drawn in the sand for millions and millions of voters. Same-sex marriage seems almost settled to me (maybe I’m naive as I live out it’s daily mundanities and don’t think twice about something that seemed radical 10 years ago). And there’s more common ground on guns than we think.

But when you tell your tribe that the other side literally kills babies out of convenience, that gets them to the voting booth, that’s the fire that never goes out. And it hasn’t since 1972.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:28 AM   #823
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Flynn to plead guilty to making false statements in the Russia investigation.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:31 AM   #824
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Flynn to plead guilty to making false statements in the Russia investigation.
which means, of course, that he's a cooperating witness.

ruh roh scooby
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:34 AM   #825
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I absolutely agree the abortion is the big divider. It's hugely important to a large group of conservative voters, and many of them are single issue voters on abortion. It's why Roy Moore is probably going to win in Alabama.

I'd put guns up there with abortion. Not quite as high, but high enough.

I also agree that same sex marriage sort of feels settled. Younger conservatives especially, I think, have mostly accepted this if not agree with it. The battle now is over things like do you have to decorate a cake for a same sex wedding that you object to. But that will all be sorted out. And interestingly, and importantly, culturally the populace was ahead of politicians and the courts when it came to same sex marriage. I think that's a big part of the reason that once things started happening, they happened quickly. The public's acceptance to gays and lesbians has grown dramatically in just the past decade.

The thing is though, even if I disagree with conservatives on abortion and same sex marriage, I don't automatically assume the worst about their intentions. I don't assume that a pro-choice person is a misogynist who wants to enslave women. I don't assume that someone who believes marriage is between a man and a woman is a homophobe who hates gay people. If someone says they want a secure border I don't assume they're a xenophobic bigot. If they're pro-gun I don't say they have blood on their hands everytime there's a mass shooting.

That's not so say that some of this is not rooted in sexism, or racism or homophobia. There's no doubt some of it is. But I also think there are people who, for religious or cultural reasons, feel differently than I do in good faith. I might think they're wrong, but that's different than attacking their motivations. And that's what a lot of them hear on social media all day. Even if you think they're a racist because of the policies they support, it doesn't mean they think of themselves that way.

There was an interesting study recently regarding how conservatives and progressives define things like racism differently. Conservatives tend to think a person is racist if they act with some kind of racial malice or bigotry in their own lives, whereas progressives tend to regard someone as racist if they support what they regard to be racist policies. It's an interesting distinction and that I think explains some of all this.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:45 AM   #826
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There was an interesting study recently regarding how conservatives and progressives define things like racism differently. Conservatives tend to think a person is racist if they act with some kind of racial malice or bigotry in their own lives, whereas progressives tend to regard someone as racist if they support what they regard to be racist policies. It's an interesting distinction and that I think explains some of all this.
I think that makes sense.

However, it also appears to me that the definition of racism tends to be driven by the majority (in this case, whites). And we need to be very careful about telling POCs what does and does not constitute racism because it really comes from a place of privilege and a total lack of understanding.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:12 AM   #827
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I think tribalism is the worst offender. Not every GOP is a racist, but their hatred for liberal or the other sides will push them to vote for someone who is a racist.

And now they’re about to elect a pedophile to Congress.

There is no line left to cross or come back from
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:20 AM   #828
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There are a lot of people who vote simply because it will make people they don't like mad.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:36 AM   #829
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I think tribalism is the worst offender. Not every GOP is a racist, but their hatred for liberal or the other sides will push them to vote for someone who is a racist.
There's plenty of tribalism across the board.

And while I think their hatred of progressives (and knowing progressives hate them) is part of their motivation for who they vote for, I think they're motives are actually slightly more strategic than that. They're willing to overlook someone's personal failings in order to get someone in DC who is willing to advance their agenda.

And when you think about it, who can fault them for that? What's the alternative? Putting someone in there from the other party who is going to be against them on abortion and most of the rest of the things they care about? I think most progressives would do the same.

Indeed, it's that rationale that made progressives and feminists largely give Bill Clinton a pass for his personal failings.
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:54 PM   #830
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LOL @ the official WH response re: Flynn.

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Today, Michael Flynn, a former National Security Advisor at the White House for 25 days during the Trump administration, and a former Obama administration official, entered a guilty plea to a single count of making a false statement to the FBI.
Another coffee guy I guess! Obviously this is all Obama's fault (nevermind Obama fired Flynn), which is really the long hand way of saying it's Hillary's fault.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:06 PM   #831
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I think we're now on the 'When does Trump Fire Mueller?' watch
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:06 PM   #832
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Flynn says he was directed to make contact with the Russians by "a senior transition official" and a "very senior transition official"

The only transition officials that fit that definition that would be in a position to order Flynn to do anything are Kushner, Pence and Trump himself.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:07 PM   #833
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Flynn says he was directed to make contact with the Russians by "a senior campaign official" and a "very senior campaign official"
And reports are coming out now that Jared made one of those decisions.

Kushner
Sessions
Pence
Trump

I think those are the remaining players that fall. Possibly Ivanka too
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:08 PM   #834
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I wonder what Flynn is giving them to get such a sweetheart deal. This is really the equivalent of a slap on the wrist given what they could have thrown at him.

Obviously they're after a bigger fish, but the question is, how big a fish, and for what?

Trump himself would not be correctly described as a "transition official." Though Pence certainly was.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:08 PM   #835
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I think we're now on the 'When does Trump Fire Mueller?' watch
Doesn't he have to get Rosenstein to do it?
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:09 PM   #836
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I wonder what Flynn is giving them to get such a sweetheart deal. This is really the equivalent of a slap on the wrist given what they could have thrown at him.

Obviously they're after a bigger fish, but the question is, how big a fish, and for what?
This is the key component.

They have him hook line and sinker. To let him get away with this minor charge (and no charges for Mikey Jr.) means he has something, or someone, significant.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:10 PM   #837
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Hey, anyone wonder why the Republicans are so anxious to jam this tax bill into law as fast as humanly possible?

Yup.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:12 PM   #838
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Flynn does have a sweet deal, which would only be given if he has some very good, credible information on people higher than him.

There were only two people higher than him

Pence
Trump

The Orange one is the target, and his administration better be careful what they say going forward
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:18 PM   #839
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Orange Is The New Orange
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:19 PM   #840
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The Orange one is the target, and his administration better be careful what they say going forward
Better just post some videos of Muslims beheading people.
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