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Old 11-20-2017, 05:00 PM   #641
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I don't think I'm defaulting to it as the only solution. I'm viewing it on a global scale. We have major space agencies in capitalist, socialist, and communist countries. NASA is the marquis, and only recently has it stagnated (through the last 20 years, aside from its Mars missions, it has been riddled in bureaucracy and struggling to handle administration changes).

But, it wasn't posing capitalism as the only solution. Governments do not prioritize space. I can give you arguments for why they should. I'm sure people would like if they did, too. But, it just isn't the case. I particularly picked on ESA because, after spending three months interacting in two different ESA sites, I can comfortably say they do not possess the resources to advance any technology at all. You've got the US and Russia. Aside from those two countries, its niche stuff in space. China is finally catching up.




But NASA's budget isn't why this tech was stagnated. NASA has never built any of the materials they use. For example, Boeing built the Saturn V. Well, Boeing bought all the companies that built the Saturn V. That was back in a time when NASA's budget was huge. The thing is, NASA's role as a government entity is to facilitate the economy/industry. I see you mentioning that NASA is "throwing money" at SpaceX. That's quite literally their job, if we are justifying tax payer dollars. It facilitates growth through technological advancement by supporting industry. It has always done this, from inception. NASA was absolutely not throwing tons of money at SpaceX to develop these advanced technologies for BFR or for landing spent rocket stages. That all came from SpaceX filling a void left by the greedy bomb makers.

Anyways, I should perhaps scale back a bit here. I love the government-private industry interaction between NASA and SpaceX. It makes big government beautiful in its own right. Yes, Musk has a reputation for working employees very long hours and keeping his company small. Conversely, Boeing and LMCO treat their employees competitively "well."

In the 1930's Boeing was effectively trust-busted by I-forgot-the-law. Something to do with not allowing aircraft manufacturers to also be airlines. Anyways, did you know that Boeing was once modern day Boeing + United Airlines + United Technology Corporations? Each of those respective companies is top-5 in size in their respective industries (in some sectors, Boeing competes with UTC now). Since the 30s, Boeing has swallowed companies such as McDonnell, Douglas, parts of Rockwell, Rocketdyne, etc. etc. Boeing fiends on its competition to this day, heavily in bed with the US government. It seeks to eliminate competition - recently, Boeing had the US government levy 300% taxes on all Canadian/UK imports of Bombardier C-series aircraft. The C-series was set to be the first competitor to the Boeing 737 and Airbus A320 family aircraft since the late 1980s. Its fate? In order to spite Boeing, Airbus purchased the project from Bombardier and agreed to assemble the product in the US at its facilities to save the project and its thousands of workers. Is Boeing upset? No. The duopoly remains. Is Airbus upset? No. They just had someone develop a better jet without having to fork up the bill.

Anyways, Boeing is an evil company. You might be wondering "why is he going on about this? He already knows I agree." I'm going on about this because Boeing is too big. SpaceX is not. Elon Musk maintains SpaceX at a small size (believe me - awful reputation for work goes yet still impossible to land a job at). Boeing does not have a human leader. Boeing has a bunch of rich fat entitled CEOs and chairpeople who feed a bureaucratic system that worries mostly about how it turns profits. At all expenses. At limiting technology. At killing. And yes, at offering competitive salaries and benefits for employees. So, we find ourselves at a capitalist moral dilemma. Small company that does big positive things for the fate of humanity at the expense of working employees hard? Or big machine of a company that destroys our future but the employees are "taken care of" to some petty level while a bunch of rich fat white old men take all of the money and murder people overdress?

The thing is, workers have a choice with what company they'd rather work for. Now, I know you're suggesting "neither" to both, but I can comfortably say 1. SpaceX, 2. Boeing, 3. Any European private contractor (though I'm like 95% in for working at NASA before any of them).

The thing is, and I know I'm going on and on, Boeing isn't a person. It's not actually "evil." The image of a bunch of fat old white men laughing as they agree to murder a bunch of people in the Middle East isn't really real. The reality is, it's capitalism that grows too big. I don't need to educate you or anyone on this... Boeing and capitalist companies like it are absolute machines. They operate as they're supposed to to make a profit. They've lost all ability to feel. To have direction. To have purpose. Boeing used to have it in the 1930s under its founder, William Boeing. SpaceX still has that, but it will turn into a monster once Musk is gone. I find there to be a very strong necessity for public-private interaction.

Sorry for the rambling - I'm on a plane and texting this ain't easy.
My entire argument is that if we are forced to choose between one or the other we will lose either way. I'm not sure this addresses that argument.

I also think you are really glossing over the labor problems involved in Musk's companies.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:05 PM   #642
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Have we ever seen a sustainable system?
No, and there are a lot of things that need to change for us to get to something possibly sustainable. And decision time is going to come way sooner than people realize because of climate change.

A very leftist commentator put it this way, and I think it's correct: we are heading for a worldwide catastrophe with the climate, and you're going to have to choose sides soon. And the sides are "eliminate the superwealthy and share the resources with everyone" or genocide.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:10 PM   #643
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My entire argument is that if we are forced to choose between one or the other we will lose either way. I'm not sure this addresses that argument.



I also think you are really glossing over the labor problems involved in Musk's companies.


Sorry I'm not intending to gloss over it, I'm just responding on my phone. 99% of my responses come on my phone. I can only surmise that the post that started this discussion was well received because it was pretty probably the first time time I've posted via web browser in 2-3 years.

What I wanted to get more at with my post was that I don't see an alternative anywhere in the world to the two that you're not happy deciding between.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:54 PM   #644
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No, and there are a lot of things that need to change for us to get to something possibly sustainable. And decision time is going to come way sooner than people realize because of climate change.



A very leftist commentator put it this way, and I think it's correct: we are heading for a worldwide catastrophe with the climate, and you're going to have to choose sides soon. And the sides are "eliminate the superwealthy and share the resources with everyone" or genocide.


Well that process alone would cause genocides, but let’s say we survived those genocides... then what? What happens on day one when everything is shared? It’s still an unsustainable idealism. And have we saved any lives in the short or long term?
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:23 PM   #645
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Sorry I'm not intending to gloss over it, I'm just responding on my phone. 99% of my responses come on my phone. I can only surmise that the post that started this discussion was well received because it was pretty probably the first time time I've posted via web browser in 2-3 years.

What I wanted to get more at with my post was that I don't see an alternative anywhere in the world to the two that you're not happy deciding between.
Socialism.
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Well that process alone would cause genocides, but let’s say we survived those genocides... then what? What happens on day one when everything is shared? It’s still an unsustainable idealism. And have we saved any lives in the short or long term?
If your entire attitude is that we can't make things better except in small increments, I'm not sure there is a point to having the discussion I am having.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:35 PM   #646
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Socialism.


Ok but from that particular example can you name me the socialist entities and describe how they're doing?

Of course a sample size of 1/2/3 isn't enough to draw a conclusion. But just as you think I'm merely disregarding stuff, you too are providing a blanketed bandaid on this topic.

I support socialist entities for four government necessities specifically (aside from government itself). Healthcare, education, infrastructure, and policing/defense. Unfortunately in our country, we use all the money for all four of these things on the final subject of policing and defense.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:49 PM   #647
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Healthcare, education, infrastructure, and defense really aren't examples of socialism, however. At least their presence doesn't necessarily make for a socialist economic system. Almost every country in the world provides those things to one extent or another.

And even the much-cited Scandinavian model promoted by fans of so-called Democratic Socialism still has capitalism as the engine that drives the economy. Among modern, democratic countries socialism really isn't even a consideration. The debate is all about how regulated the economy is. But even a hyper regulated economy isn't socialism.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:50 PM   #648
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Socialism.



If your entire attitude is that we can't make things better except in small increments, I'm not sure there is a point to having the discussion I am having.


I’m asking for a real plan. How do you see it happening here first?
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:01 PM   #649
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Healthcare, education, infrastructure, and defense really aren't examples of socialism, however. At least their presence doesn't necessarily make for a socialist economic system. Almost every country in the world provides those things to one extent or another.

And even the much-cited Scandinavian model promoted by fans of so-called Democratic Socialism still has capitalism as the engine that drives the economy. Among modern, democratic countries socialism really isn't even a consideration. The debate is all about how regulated the economy is. But even a hyper regulated economy isn't socialism.
I think you hit it with the regulated economy.

I don't see a way for the USA to become a full on socialist nation.

We need to just drop the labels and focus more on a solution, which would be to start curtailing a lot of the issues or loop holes that our current system has in place.

When issues arise, work to fix them. It doesn't have to fit into a label. We don't have to be a 'ism'. Why not have aspects of all and adapt as society changes.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:14 PM   #650
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There's very little chance of America become a socialist nation absent the ingredient that almost always accompanies genuine socialism...revolution. And usually a bloody one at that.

There does seem to be a renewed interest in what some call socialism (or again, 'Democratic Socialism'), and the openness to it in concept at least is the highest it's been since the 1930's. Most of this is accounted for by increased interest among millennials, but the problem is most millennials really don't understand what socialism is, and in any event their economic views are all over the map and often contradictory to the point of basically being incoherent.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:21 PM   #651
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I love this idealistic notion that some people have that in a socialist society there isn't corruption. Or naked ambition. Or an upper class, begotten one way or another.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:32 PM   #652
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Yes. Any economic or political system that involves human beings (and as far as I know, they all do) is going to have corruption to one degree or another. And there will always be classes as well. Soviet Russia wasn't a classless society, nor was Maoist China. Nor is Cuba, and certainly not North Korea. Human beings will always find a way. Actually, strictly socialist countries are typically among the most corrupt. When the state is the entity that provides most things, it makes state workers and officials eminently corruptible.

That said, in fairness, in TI's annual corruption perception index, the Scandinavian countries typically come out in the top ten (least corrupt). Though again, they're not socialist countries.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:40 PM   #653
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I’m asking for a real plan. How do you see it happening here first?
The first and most important thing to be addressed IMO is education. A major reason for growing wealth disparity is so many young people get mired in 10s of thousands of dollars of debt getting a basic, functional education. That prevents a huge portion of the middle and lower classes from making timely investments that would help them climb the economic ladder in their 30s and 40s. College education needs to become much, much more affordable.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:01 PM   #654
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The first and most important thing to be addressed IMO is education. A major reason for growing wealth disparity is so many young people get mired in 10s of thousands of dollars of debt getting a basic, functional education. That prevents a huge portion of the middle and lower classes from making timely investments that would help them climb the economic ladder in their 30s and 40s. College education needs to become much, much more affordable.


Completely agree, I also think trade and tech schools need to be included in this plan.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:17 AM   #655
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completely agree, i also think trade and tech schools need to be included in this plan.
100%
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:12 AM   #656
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Completely agree, I also think trade and tech schools need to be included in this plan.
Agreed, as long as those programs are in jobs that aren't readily subject to globalization pressures. Focus on "non-transferables" as the economic lingo would say.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:29 AM   #657
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Politics of interference
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:42 AM   #658
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:29 PM   #659
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Yea I don't get it either
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:50 PM   #660
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All of Headache's quote post went lowercase (including "bvs").

Suppose "100%" was considered screaming.
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