US Politics III

[BVS]

A great man once said, "Amitram, you are never satisfied with any follow-up (of which I have been quite reliable) so why bother?"

Not fond of the truth, pseudo-bravado; let me ask you, is your skin orange as well?

 

[nbelcik]

Do you happen to have a source?

https://www.americanprogress.org/is...ng-daca-will-cost-states-billions-of-dollars/

It's an undisputed economic fact that immigration in general helps the economy. It does hurt certain low-wage workers, but it does provide a general boost for everyone else.

 

[cobl04]

After listening to U2, how have you not understood this one simple truth: Every person on earth has a battle to fight. White men are no different. Unless...you think they actually are different. You seem to be arguing that white men are either superior for their inability to experience hardship, or inferior because their genetics require them to place undue hardship on others. Either way, your attitude seems very racist and misandristic.

This is absolutely true, however it is ignorant of the inherent biases of being white.

I am a white man. I have my own battles, with generalised anxiety disorder, in particular, and firmly agree with you that every person is fighting a battle. Every single person on earth.

But I can categorically state the following:

- I have never been refused a taxi for the colour of my skin
- I have never been overlooked for a job because of the colour of my skin
- I have never had a stranger baulk when I walk around a shopping centre with a hoodie on
- I have never had a person look at me and make an assumption about my character
- I have never had my rights as a human being subject to public debate
- I have no history anywhere in my lineage of being persecuted for the colour of my skin

I could go on. All these things have happened to people of colour I know or have read about. And they continue to happen. I have my own battles, but non-white people have been telling us for many years that on top of their own battles, they also have the things mentioned above happen to them.

Thoughts?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

After listening to U2, how have you not understood this one simple truth: Every person on earth has a battle to fight. White men are no different. Unless...you think they actually are different. You seem to be arguing that white men are either superior for their inability to experience hardship, or inferior because their genetics require them to place undue hardship on others. Either way, your attitude seems very racist and misandristic.

Oh, for the love of all that is good, will you stop with this nonsense already? If this is part of your "devil's advocate" thing, just drop it already, it's not cute or funny.

Read today that the US would lose $400 billion in GDP if DACA is rescinded. This isn't about making the country a better place. This is about racism.

Agreed.

I'm also getting a kick out of how this administration's deciding to fuck over immigrants at the very same time we're hearing all these wonderful stories of Mexico doing their part to help victims of Harvey.

But yeah. We totally need to build a wall to protect ourselves from them. Sure .

 

[AEON]

When you're not ignoring her questions, you're either completely misunderstanding her post, or completely twisting to pretend she's saying something else(kinda your go to move around here).

And now your "generous" move proves once again you're not understanding this conversation.

Why is it so difficult for you to honestly engage? I'm serious. It seems impossible for you to do so, but then you blame the other side for not listening to your tabloid sources, your twisting, and your lying.

I guarantee you, you'd actually have discussion in here if you were genuine.

I quote a source such as Huffington Post or NYT, you ignore it. I throw in a whole cornucopia of sources - as proof there is a lot of discussion on the topic - you simple ignore them all because a few of the sources are right leaning (and those do include sources)

The point was, and still is, there is controversy around Europe's tightening of Free Speech.

 

[AEON]

Oh, for the love of all that is good, will you stop with this nonsense already? If this is part of your "devil's advocate" thing, just drop it already, it's not cute or funny.

But it is logical. I'm assuming that still has a place here?

 

[BVS]

I quote a source such as Huffington Post or NYT, you ignore it. I throw in a whole cornucopia of sources - as proof there is a lot of discussion on the topic - you simple ignore them all because a few of the sources are right leaning (and those do include sources)



The point was, and still is, there is controversy around Europe's tightening of Free Speech.

But it's not "simply expressing concern" as you suggested. Words and facts matter.

 

[anitram]

Either way, your attitude seems very racist and misandristic.

Babydoll make sure you show that one to your white husband.

 

[BEAL]

Words and facts matter.

In Trump's America, they don't. And this explains why we are here and why we are so divided

 

[Diemen]

Not fond of the truth, pseudo-bravado; let me ask you, is your skin orange as well?

That's enough personal jabs, BVS.

 

[AEON]

This is absolutely true, however it is ignorant of the inherent biases of being white.

I am a white man. I have my own battles, with generalised anxiety disorder, in particular, and firmly agree with you that every person is fighting a battle. Every single person on earth.

But I can categorically state the following:

- I have never been refused a taxi for the colour of my skin
- I have never been overlooked for a job because of the colour of my skin
- I have never had a stranger baulk when I walk around a shopping centre with a hoodie on
- I have never had a person look at me and make an assumption about my character
- I have never had my rights as a human being subject to public debate
- I have no history anywhere in my lineage of being persecuted for the colour of my skin

I could go on. All these things have happened to people of colour I know or have read about. And they continue to happen. I have my own battles, but non-white people have been telling us for many years that on top of their own battles, they also have the things mentioned above happen to them.

Thoughts?

That was a great response. Thank you. My only real reply to your list is that I personally try to treat everybody I meet with dignity and respect.

Additionally, if I am to accept the problems of white culture - I should also be free to express the benefits of it without being considered a neo-Nazi. White men should not be raised to feel a sense of shame simply for being white men - because that is what will lead to the very reactionary response we truly don't want.

 

[Diemen]

A great man once said, "Amitram, you are never satisfied with any follow-up (of which I have been quite reliable) so why bother?"

That's your response?

I know you're basically taking on all comers here, but anitram made some extremely valid points with regards to your sources and what they're actually saying, and dismissing them with a cute little jab isn't a good look if you're here looking to take part in good faith.

 

[nbelcik]

I'm also getting a kick out of how this administration's deciding to fuck over immigrants at the very same time we're hearing all these wonderful stories of Mexico doing their part to help victims of Harvey.



But yeah. We totally need to build a wall to protect ourselves from them. Sure .

There was a story on CBS News tonight about a Dreamer who drove 120 miles to Houston so he could rescue people with his boat and a friend. He drowned after hitting a bridge which caused his boat to capsize. Dude was a hero in every way and yet Trump and Sessions would rather he not be in the country. It's so sad

 

[BVS]

That was a great response. Thank you. My only real reply to your list is that I personally try to treat everybody I meet with dignity and respect.

Additionally, if I am to accept the problems of white culture - I should also be free to express the benefits of it without being considered a neo-Nazi. White men should not be raised to feel a sense of shame simply for being white men - because that is what will lead to the very reactionary response we truly don't want.

No one has ever considered you a neo-Nazi in here.

This is why you're considered a liar, or at the very least someone who has to constantly twist.

 

[BVS]

That's enough personal jabs, BVS.

He accused me(and others) of saying a race was genetically inferior, he has flat out lied, and he arrogantly referred to himself as a "great man", but I get called out for personal jabs?



Oh, you mean the comparing him to Trump?! Fair point. My apologies.

 

[AEON]

https://www.americanprogress.org/is...ng-daca-will-cost-states-billions-of-dollars/

I'm assuming others have no problem with this "progressive" source. (I actually do not, because I understand you are agreeing with their assessment and adding their researched, professional opinion to back it up. While I may disagree with an opinion writer's conclusions, they usually base their argument on actual data.)

It's an undisputed economic fact that immigration in general helps the economy.

There is plenty of dispute out there...

It does hurt certain low-wage workers, but it does provide a general boost for everyone else.

Illegal immigration severely impacts construction, landscaping, and interior remodeling. Not exactly high end pay, but certainly decent.

 

[AEON]

That's your response?

I know you're basically taking on all comers here, but anitram made some extremely valid points with regards to your sources and what they're actually saying, and dismissing them with a cute little jab isn't a good look if you're here looking to take part in good faith.

Fair enough. I'll take another look and respond. Although I do think that I proved the following points by simply posting those sources after a google search:

1) limiting Free Speech in Europe is controversial
2) I was not making up the fact that it was controversial
3) there is plenty of discussion on the topic (it was implied that I was merely making up the fact that there are concerns about "Hate Speech" including questioning immigration policy - I offered a direct quote)

 

[BVS]

Illegal immigration severely impacts construction, landscaping, and interior remodeling. Not exactly high end pay, but certainly decent.

Just curious; do you really believe that the average Trump supporter is willing to pay the increase in lettuce, coffee, labor, hotels, going out to dinner, or their own housing? You keep pretending that this is some dream of the elite but forget that the cost of everything in your rust belt dream will increase, that Trump's ties will cost you twice as much, and Walmart will be considered Macy's.

You really think it's just landscaping and construction?

So the average American dry waller gets to keep his job, but everything arounds them goes up in costs and his wages will not change, what does he do? None of you have thought this through on an economic or moral lens.

 

[Irvine511]

But it is logical. I'm assuming that still has a place here?

I admire your indefatigabity, but do you really think others are the ones having issues with logic in this thread?

The martyr act isn't working.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

There was a story on CBS News tonight about a Dreamer who drove 120 miles to Houston so he could rescue people with his boat and a friend. He drowned after hitting a bridge which caused his boat to capsize. Dude was a hero in every way and yet Trump and Sessions would rather he not be in the country. It's so sad

Oh, man, how tragic. Much respect for him going so far and risking his life to help others, though-here's hoping his legacy and efforts can live on somehow.

 

[cobl04]

That was a great response. Thank you. My only real reply to your list is that I personally try to treat everybody I meet with dignity and respect.

Additionally, if I am to accept the problems of white culture - I should also be free to express the benefits of it without being considered a neo-Nazi. White men should not be raised to feel a sense of shame simply for being white men - because that is what will lead to the very reactionary response we truly don't want.

What benefits?

And no one is being raised to feel shame, I have no fucking idea where you get that from.

 

[AEON]

Just curious; do you really believe that the average Trump supporter is willing to pay the increase in lettuce, coffee, labor, hotels, going out to dinner, or their own housing?

What about you, BVS? How much do you enjoy the benefits of cheap labor? I personally hope that I wouldn't buy cheap cotton from the South in 1857...

As for 2017, I would certainly pay more for lettuce (which I rarely eat) and a made-bed in order not to take advantage of illegal immigrants and their willingness to work ungody hours for pennies on the dollar....but that's me...

You keep pretending that this is some dream of the elite but forget that the cost of everything in your rust belt dream will increase, that Trump's ties will cost you twice as much, and Walmart will be considered Macy's.

I rarely shop at those stores and I would think that our awesome, creative population would find a way to provide the goods and services people want at the price they are willing to pay...otherwise those goods are not true goods and those services are not true services....

Community gardens help reduce the cost of vegetables because of cutting out transportation and storage costs - that's one example. Think outside the box...that's what we do...

You really think it's just landscaping and construction?

No, it's worse. Thank for pointing that out.

So the average American dry waller gets to keep his job, but everything arounds them goes up in costs and his wages will not change, what does he do? None of you have thought this through on an economic or moral lens.

Not true, the dry-waller gets paid at market rate (the good ones get paid more), and hopefully, will have some spare income to buy the goods and services that others create (as opposed to being unemployed, uninsured, depressed with zero disposable income).

 

[AEON]

What benefits?

Are you suggesting there are none? Or are you trying to trap me into what I specifically warned against?

And no one is being raised to feel shame, I have no fucking idea where you get that from.

 

[cobl04]

Are you suggesting there are none? Or are you trying to trap me into what I specifically warned against?

There are many benefits, specifically the ones I mentioned in my earlier post. I'd like to know what you'd think they are.

Why are you threatened or upset by this? I watch this as a white person and go "yeah, good points". You are choosing to view this in an inflammatory way. If more white people heeded the messages in this video, there'd be no need for BLM, protests and so on.

 

[BVS]

What about you, BVS? How much do you enjoy the benefits of cheap labor? I personally hope that I wouldn't buy cheap cotton from the South in 1857...



As for 2017, I would certainly pay more for lettuce (which I rarely eat) and a made-bed in order not to take advantage of illegal immigrants and their willingness to work ungody hours for pennies on the dollar....but that's me...



I rarely shop at those stores and I would think that our awesome, creative population would find a way to provide the goods and services people want at the price they are willing to pay...otherwise those goods are not true goods and those services are not true services....



Community gardens help reduce the cost of vegetables because of cutting out transportation and storage costs - that's one example. Think outside the box...that's what we do...





No, it's worse. Thank for pointing that out.





Not true, the dry-waller gets paid at market rate (the good ones get paid more), and hopefully, will have some spare income to buy the goods and services that others create (as opposed to being unemployed, uninsured, depressed with zero disposable income).

Well I'm glad that you have this disposition, but the majority of the country does not. They will eat a Taco Bell taco over a Chipotle one, and they will call the other 'elite' for doing the right thing.

And I admire your faith in community culture, but community culture doesn't build smart phones.

We will never be an American only economy, globalism is here to stay. I'm sorry, but none of you are willing to take a step back technology wise, or are you?

And no, economics 101, when the dry waller starts getting paid higher wages then you and everyone else pays more for housing and rent.

 

[AEON]

There are many benefits, specifically the ones I mentioned in my earlier post. I'd like to know what you'd think they are.

I respectfully decline this kind invitation. However, I do think that others should be able to list the great things about Western/European Civilization without being considered a white supremacist.

Why are you threatened or upset by this? I watch this as a white person and go "yeah, good points". You are choosing to view this in an inflammatory way. If more white people heeded the messages in this video, there'd be no need for BLM, protests and so on.

I'm not that upset about it. It's entirely goofy. I'm surprised you are not offended by their assertion that all men of the "white" race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race. You know, the exact definition of racism.

 

[AEON]

Well I'm glad that you have this disposition, but the majority of the country does not. They will eat a Taco Bell taco over a Chipotle one, and they will call the other 'elite' for doing the right thing.

I think you are giving an example of quality actually winning, right?

And I admire your faith in community culture, but community culture doesn't build smart phones.

Chinese slaves do

We will never be an American only economy, globalism is here to stay. I'm sorry, but none of you are willing to take a step back technology wise, or are you?

I think that screwing with wages by importing near-slave labor has probably slowed the tech revolution more than helped it. In the same way that slavery in the South slowed the progress of mechanization.

And no, economics 101, when the dry waller starts getting paid higher wages then you and everyone else pays more for housing and rent.

Yes, but the dry-waller can now afford to buy my widget and take his grandma to my wife's quaint Tea House downtown...it's a win win

 

[cobl04]

I respectfully decline this kind invitation. However, I do think that others should be able to list the great things about Western/European Civilization without being considered a white supremacist.

Well that seems to me to suggest that you're worried about saying something and then having people call you out for it. That's how free speech works. Why decline? Tell me. There's nothing at stake here, we're talking on an internet forum.

I am open to having my mind changed.

There's plenty of great things about Western civilisation, for example the fact that I live in a country where I have a good job, am very safe, great access to free healthcare (one example of why America is nowhere near as good as you think it is) and a range of other things. One of the very, if not the single greatest thing about Western civilisation is multiculturalism. We have benefitted so strongly from it.

I'm not that upset about it. It's entirely goofy. I'm surprised you are not offended by their assertion that all men of the "white" race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race. You know, the definition of racism.

Amazing false equivalence, great man. A video providing light-hearted tips on how to listen better and maybe improve interracial relations is racism? Try telling that to the black man who was beaten by white supremacists last month.

 

[AEON]

Well that seems to me to suggest that you're worried about saying something and then having people call you out for it. That's how free speech works. Why decline? Tell me. There's nothing at stake here, we're talking on an internet forum.

Man, you seem like Mr. MacPhisto from ZOO TV...

Amazing false equivalence, great man.

So, the belief that all "male" members of white race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, is not racist? (and also misandristic, but who's counting?)

A video providing light-hearted tips on how to listen better and maybe improve interracial relations is racism?

So you would be okay with a "playful" video giving "light-hearted" tips to "Black Women" or "Middle Eastern Transgenders" on how they could improve interracial relations?

Try telling that to the black man who was beaten by white supremacists last month.

Tell him what exactly? That he would not have been beaten if the KKK had watched this video?

 

[AEON]

Nope. The fact that you are all for it says a lot about you.

What does that say about Bill and Hillary Clinton? And Ted Kennedy?