US Politics III

[AEON]

fuck!!!! exposed for the racist I truly am!!! I bow down to aeon's moral superiority

I don't think you're a racist. I was only demonstrating the flaw in the reasoning.

 

[cobl04]

omg!!!! exposed again!!!!! unbelievable!!!!!!!

 

[kiwilad]

Obviously Aeon the US can't absorb every poor kid in the world. But then no one is suggesting that.
But the kids of illegal immigrants are ALREADY THERE! They're human beings, with boyfriends and girlfriends and memories of pre school and christmases and playgrounds that all exist within the US. Deporting them now is closer to the German deporting of jews than it is to the founding principles of the US.

 

[corianderstem]

A friend pointed out on FB that DACA was always pretty temporary - an Obama exec order only alive at the mercy of the next prez. And only in place because fuck Congress, basically, since nothing rational regarding immigration was going to come out of those turkeys under Obama (or anyone else at this point, probably).

So I guess it's just like before DACA - some people think those who came as kids should leave, and some think they should be allowed a path to citizenship.

Except 880,000 are at least $500 poorer for having applied for DACA status, and they trusted the gov't with all their info proving they are undocumented.

 

[BVS]

I think the logic is crystal clear....sort of like Clinton's expansion of the "physical barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Logic says it simply does not scale to allow every disadvantaged kid to come to America.

No. This is the opposite of logic. You tried framing this poster into saying that non-whites are genetically inferior. It was a SHIT post, and now like so many of your posts you dishonestly try and cover. You're incapable of being honest.

 

[nbelcik]

Not to mention most are college educated with good jobs, exactly the sort of people you want in this country. But since their families don't have the proper paperwork, tough shit. Disgusting. The university I work for has said it will do whatever it can to help these brave kids.

It's a shame that the GOP only cares about rich, white Americans.

My best friend is from Guatemala and became a citizen last week and I'm so happy he got it done now because I'm worried about what's going to happen. He's going to graduate college next year and probably go to Stanford for law school. But even if he wasn't such a high-achiever, he still deserves to stay in the country. Someone who came here as a child who knows no other country than the US deserves to stay here. Deporting them now is the height of cruelty.

 

[anitram]

DACA is a very recent policy (which is more of undoing an existing policy) instituted by then President Obama. I was never in favor of it. I agree with Trump only because I already my opinion on the subject.

This idea that every man, woman, and child from across the globe has a God-given right to live in America is ridiculous. It is not racist to have an immigration policy. It is not racist to enforce immigration policies.

So you are in favour of mass deportation?

 

[shineon]

My best friend is from Guatemala and became a citizen last week and I'm so happy he got it done now because I'm worried about what's going to happen. He's going to graduate college next year and probably go to Stanford for law school. But even if he wasn't such a high-achiever, he still deserves to stay in the country. Someone who came here as a child who knows no other country than the US deserves to stay here. Deporting them now is the height of cruelty.

Aeon, you are right that not everyone in the world can come here. But the DACA kids are already here and are making a contribution. This is the only life they've known. To deport them now is cruel and inhumane.
Going back to your earlier argument, you think that the guy who mowed down protesters at the Charleston rally did so because Antifa was there? I'm really not following that line of reasoning at all and I doubt that he did this with any level of conscious thought process.
Also, when we were talking about the Hitler argument you mentioned that the Left invokes this. Why refer to "the Left" as some sort of monolith? It just polarizes the argument and creates camps where discussion and insight can no longer occur?

 

[shineon]

On a related note, I think Bono should get an honorary American citizenship. Growing up, I did not "get" R. Reagan's brand of patriotism at all. In the 70's we didn't necessarily believe America was all that special. Bono has continually called America exceptional and pointed us to our higher ideals. He is quite visionary in that respect, in a way that transcends the politics of the left or of the right.

 

[VintagePunk]

The problem is "Hate Speech" is way too vague to ban. What if suddenly those in power decided that deriding Christians or wearing a"Fightin' Irish" was now "Hate Speech" ? You would probably accuse me of hate speech for suggesting a "barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Yes, Free Speech is dying in Europe. I'm not sure that's a good thing. To speak out, or even express concern about the immigrants from the Middle East is labeled "Hate Speech" - so these citizens now have zero control over their own country. It's all in the hands of the government, and not the people.

Nope. That is not the way that it works. There are very precise definitions as to what constitutes hate speech, and the courts do not constantly move the goalposts according to what is in vogue, the way your slippery slope arguments suggest. You are just plain wrong, here.

 

[AEON]

You're incapable of being honest.

Are you suggesting my claim that President Bill Clinton expanded the "physical barrier" of the US/Mexico border is untrue? Are you suggesting that my claim that Senator Hillary Clinton voted to fund the "physical barrier" is untrue?

Again, here are their own words. Please indicate which part of my claim is untrue:

 

[AEON]

Nope. That is not the way that it works. There are very precise definitions as to what constitutes hate speech, and the courts do not constantly move the goalposts according to what is in vogue, the way your slippery slope arguments suggest. You are just plain wrong, here.

Well, thankfully the ACLU agrees with me here. You and I will have to respectfully disagree.

 

[BVS]

Are you suggesting my claim that President Bill Clinton expanded the "physical barrier" of the US/Mexico border is untrue? Are you suggesting that my claim that Senator Hillary Clinton voted to fund the "physical barrier" is untrue?

No. Now an intelligent and honest person capable of adult and nuanced discussion would know that. They wouldn't have the need to constantly twist.

You are incapable. You can't do it, so until you prove yourself an adult, there really is no point.

 

[AEON]

Aeon, you are right that not everyone in the world can come here. But the DACA kids are already here and are making a contribution. This is the only life they've known. To deport them now is cruel and inhumane.

Well, some of this blame should be put on the Obama administration for giving false hope. I'm not sure we need to deport them, perhaps several will leave on their own. They certainly should not be receiving a "free" college education while US citizens struggle to pay tuition and need to take out staggering student loans.

Going back to your earlier argument, you think that the guy who mowed down protesters at the Charleston rally did so because Antifa was there?

No, I said, generally speaking, the violence was a result of antifa being there. Individuals that committed specific crimes should be held accountable, including the man who mowed down the protester.

Also, when we were talking about the Hitler argument you mentioned that the Left invokes this. Why refer to "the Left" as some sort of monolith? It just polarizes the argument and creates camps where discussion and insight can no longer occur?

Perhaps you are right, I do slip into the back and forth sometimes. Since the "Right" is under-represented here, I find the brat in me, more often than not , simply likes to debate...

 

[AEON]

nuanced discussion

Didn't you just call this "twisting"? And that if you have to "twist" then your point is worth making?

If you have to twist, then your point is not worth making.

 

[BVS]

Didn't you just call this "twisting"? And that if you have to "twist" then your point is worth making?

Trying too hard

 

[VintagePunk]

Well, thankfully the ACLU agrees with me here. You and I will have to respectfully disagree.

Not really sure what the ACLU has to do with anything I said. They exist to see that laws are applied consistently and fairly, they don't create laws. If there were hate speech laws in the US, they would fight just as vigorously for those who were victimized by hate speech. But when you have no substance to your argument, I guess throwing the ACLU out there is a diversionary tactic.

 

[corianderstem]

DACA students don't get free college. Or "free" college.

They may qualify for financial aid at state schools, depending on the state. Other states may charge them out-of-state rates even if they are long-term residents of the state.

 

[cobl04]

DACA students don't get free college. Or "free" college.

They may qualify for financial aid at state schools, depending on the state. Other states may charge them out-of-state rates even if they are long-term residents of the state.

AEON, please respond

 

[Diemen]

So you are in favour of mass deportation?

Aeon?

 

[BVS]

I'm pretty sure he answered that.

 

[AEON]

Aeon?

RE: Mass Deportation. No, I'm not in favor of it. I believe that once the border is secured, then most Americans will have this sense of, "okay, here is where we are, this is America and these are the Americans we have - let's move forward."

I think amnesty is the only reasonable path, but only after the border is secured. Otherwise, what's the point? Without our ability to protect our borders, our nation's lifespan will be very short.

 

[JTNash]

What a waste of time and resources to throw kids out who have lived here most of their lives

 

[BVS]

Perhaps you are right, I do slip into the back and forth sometimes. Since the "Right" is under-represented here, I find the brat in me, more often than not , simply likes to debate...

It doesn't matter if you're under represented or not. You're not doing your side any justice by lying. Why would you think that's alright?

 

[BVS]

RE: Mass Deportation. No, I'm not in favor of it. I believe that once the border is secured, then most Americans will have this sense of, "okay, here is where we are, this is America and these are the Americans we have - let's move forward."



I think amnesty is the only reasonable path, but only after the border is secured. Otherwise, what's the point? Without our ability to protect our borders, our nation's lifespan will be very short.

So then what does "border security" look like to you?

 

[AEON]

Aeon?

A friend pointed out on FB that DACA was always pretty temporary - an Obama exec order only alive at the mercy of the next prez. And only in place because fuck Congress, basically, since nothing rational regarding immigration was going to come out of those turkeys under Obama (or anyone else at this point, probably).

So I guess it's just like before DACA - some people think those who came as kids should leave, and some think they should be allowed a path to citizenship.
.

Thank you for pointing this out.

 

[corianderstem]

I assume you meant to quote the college thing? I did have to Google that, but I had seen many DACA myths debunked in the last few days.

 

[AEON]

So then what does "border security" look like to you?

I think Hillary Clinton's idea as she expresses it in this interview sounds reasonable to me

 

[AEON]

It doesn't matter if you're under represented or not. You're not doing your side any justice by lying. Why would you think that's alright?

What have I said that is not true?

 

[AEON]

I assume you meant to quote the college thing? I did have to Google that, but I had seen many DACA myths debunked in the last few days.

Yes, I meant to include both quotes.