US Politics III

[AEON]

I would love to hear a defense of the Trump administration's decision on DACA.

Aeon? Are you on board with the decision?

DACA is a very recent policy (which is more of undoing an existing policy) instituted by then President Obama. I was never in favor of it. I agree with Trump only because I already my opinion on the subject.

This idea that every man, woman, and child from across the globe has a God-given right to live in America is ridiculous. It is not racist to have an immigration policy. It is not racist to enforce immigration policies.

This is all about cheap labor for the elites - and they will try to publicly shame anyone with the "racist" label if you dare call them on it.

 

[BVS]

This is all about cheap labor for the elites - and they will try to publicly shame anyone with the "racist" label if you dare call them on it.

man you don't even understand your own peer voting demographic.

 

[kiwilad]

Still want to see Trump's tax returns and that supposed 'n...' audio.
Off topic? Not really. To defend the fella objectively you need context.
Hard evidence may prove Trump is an indebted self serving racist shithead. And that the far right have picked up on that and know he has their back as the combination of his dirty past, future goals and racist world view means he'll never throw his base under the bus.
So his base feel emboldened to be ass holes. See how far they can push it.

I reckon believing the idea the alt right wanted Charlottesville to be a peaceful exercise in free speech is as ludicrous as believing Trump's Mexican wall rhetoric really referred to a fence paid for by Americans.
And who would believe that?
Oh, wait...

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

DACA is a very recent policy (which is more of undoing an existing policy) instituted by then President Obama. I was never in favor of it. I agree with Trump only because I already my opinion on the subject.

This idea that every man, woman, and child from across the globe has a God-given right to live in America is ridiculous. It is not racist to have an immigration policy. It is not racist to enforce immigration policies.

This is all about cheap labor for the elites - and they will try to publicly shame anyone with the "racist" label if you dare call them on it.

Do you think all broken laws should be cast upon the children of those who broke them? Or only when brown people are involved? Cause it's "not" "racist" and all to end DACA. It's "immigration" "policy"

 

[cobl04]

The alt-right (which is a pretty loosely defined group) had a right to march peacefully

They had torches and were chanting "you will not replace us"??????

 

[zuma]

They had torches and were chanting "you will not replace us"??????

I wonder what would happen if I arm myself, carry an IS flag and peacefully march down the street chanting 'death to all non-believers'. Would AEON advocate for my right of free speech?

 

[cobl04]

Well you would hope so. After all a 226-year-old piece of paper is the most important thing on earth.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I wonder what would happen if I arm myself, carry an IS flag and peacefully march down the street chanting 'death to all non-believers'. Would AEON advocate for my right of free speech?

Are you white?

 

[VintagePunk]

That's either disingenuous or ignorant of you to suggest.

Among "Western Civilization" the USA is basically alone in their absolute right to free speech (with some very very limited restrictions). The rest of us all live in legal systems which clamp down on hate speech (that Charlottesville march would fall under such) and incitement of violence (much lower threshold than in US). And many of our states function not just fine but actually generally better than the US.

So let's not pretend that if we don't allow every asshole to publicly scream out his hatred while brandishing a weapon, as they did in Charlottesville, that's somehow a slippery slope to totalitarianism. Totally, 100% false and not only false but demonstrably false.

Would love to hear a reasonable response to this one. Not holding my breath, though.

 

[AEON]

Do you think all broken laws should be cast upon the children of those who broke them? Or only when brown people are involved? Cause it's "not" "racist" and all to end DACA. It's "immigration" "policy"

The Latino American culture is thriving in the US, especially the Southwest. DACA will have zero impact. This isn't about "brown" people.

If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the parents who put these children in this situation.

 

[AEON]

Well you would hope so. After all a 226-year-old piece of paper is the most important thing on earth.

If our founding documents are such garbage and our culture is so racist, then why the immigration flood?

And if you don't agree with part of the Constitution, there is a process for amending it, to keep it updated. Good luck on overturning the First Amendment though.

 

[cobl04]

This idea that every man, woman, and child from across the globe has a God-given right to live in America is ridiculous. It is not racist to have an immigration policy. It is not racist to enforce immigration policies.

I find this stance (I've seen it from many people) to be completely ridiculous, extremely cold and callous. You won the birth lotto. Are you telling me that if you happened to be born in Syria or sub-Saharan Africa and you woke up every day not knowing if you'd still be alive by midday, you'd be sitting there going "well, I'd like to live in America but I shouldn't be allowed to move there, that's fair, I'll just sit here and appreciate what I've got"

 

[cobl04]

If our founding documents are such garbage and our culture is so racist, then why the immigration flood?

Aaaaand this directly and completely contradicts one of your posts on this very page. Are you proud to live in a great country that is attractive to the huddled masses? Or happy to block it off to everyone?

 

[nbelcik]

The Latino American culture is thriving in the US, especially the Southwest. DACA will have zero impact. This isn't about "brown" people.



If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the parents who put these children in this situation.

As of June 2016, 741,546 people had been approved for DACA. And you're going to say that it's going to have no impact...because Latinx culture is thriving in the Southwest? What?

Yeah, deporting people who through no fault of their own were brought to this country at a very young age and for whom America is home is really a humane and not-at-all racist policy...

 

[cobl04]

Not to derail this discussion, but jesus fucking christ who is advising Hillary Clinton, and what is with the near-constant sooking coming out of the Dems?

Hillary yesterday endorsed some new 'news' website called Verrit, with the tagline 'for 65.8 million' (referring to the amount of votes she got), which a few days earlier posted this article, one of the worst pieces of dog-whistling bullshit I've ever seen:

Sanders and the Mainstream Media Helped Put Trump in the White House

And then Peter Daou spent the rest of the day shitting himself on twitter.

What an absolute fucking train wreck, who the hell thought this would be a good idea?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

It's not necessarily incorrect...

 

[cobl04]

The way it is written is absolutely disgusting and explains exactly why they lost.

 

[BVS]

The Latino American culture is thriving in the US, especially the Southwest. DACA will have zero impact. This isn't about "brown" people.



If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the parents who put these children in this situation.

Wow, you missed his point by a thousand miles.

So? Sins of the father, eh? Shall we go down that slippery slope?

 

[AEON]

That's either disingenuous or ignorant of you to suggest.

Among "Western Civilization" the USA is basically alone in their absolute right to free speech (with some very very limited restrictions). The rest of us all live in legal systems which clamp down on hate speech (that Charlottesville march would fall under such) and incitement of violence (much lower threshold than in US). And many of our states function not just fine but actually generally better than the US.

The problem is "Hate Speech" is way too vague to ban. What if suddenly those in power decided that deriding Christians or wearing a"Fightin' Irish" was now "Hate Speech" ? You would probably accuse me of hate speech for suggesting a "barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Yes, Free Speech is dying in Europe. I'm not sure that's a good thing. To speak out, or even express concern about the immigrants from the Middle East is labeled "Hate Speech" - so these citizens now have zero control over their own country. It's all in the hands of the government, and not the people.

NPR interviews ACLU

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But isn't hate speech different?

ROWLAND: There's no question that the things that Mr. Yiannopoulos says are unbelievably hateful in nature. But the phrase hate speech is a form of free speech. Again, in defending the rights of others to speak, whether or not we agree with them, we must all reach out and protect the speech that we most disagree with or else the First Amendment is just reduced to a popularity contest and has no meaning

The ACLU Explains Why They're Supporting The Rights Of Milo Yiannopoulos : NPR

So let's not pretend that if we don't allow every asshole to publicly scream out his hatred while brandishing a weapon, as they did in Charlottesville, that's somehow a slippery slope to totalitarianism. Totally, 100% false and not only false but demonstrably false.

So, if "Unite the Right" did not bring weapons and allowed antifa to pummel them sticks and rocks and bike locks, then you would support their right to march? I believe you have argued against their right to march at all. I have already explained I that I do not equate Free Speech with Free Violence.

 

[trojanchick99]

As of June 2016, 741,546 people had been approved for DACA. And you're going to say that it's going to have no impact...because Latinx culture is thriving in the Southwest? What?

Yeah, deporting people who through no fault of their own were brought to this country at a very young age and for whom America is home is really a humane and not-at-all racist policy...

Not to mention most are college educated with good jobs, exactly the sort of people you want in this country. But since their families don't have the proper paperwork, tough shit. Disgusting. The university I work for has said it will do whatever it can to help these brave kids.

It's a shame that the GOP only cares about rich, white Americans.

 

[cobl04]

I am very comfortable with neo-Nazis being pummelled with sticks and rocks and I am not sure how we ended up at a point in time where we seem to like Nazis and think they should be given a platform.

 

[AEON]

I find this stance (I've seen it from many people) to be completely ridiculous, extremely cold and callous. You won the birth lotto. Are you telling me that if you happened to be born in Syria or sub-Saharan Africa and you woke up every day not knowing if you'd still be alive by midday, you'd be sitting there going "well, I'd like to live in America but I shouldn't be allowed to move there, that's fair, I'll just sit here and appreciate what I've got"

Well, if we follow your logic, and we allow every child born into an unfortunate situation into the US, then the US would no longer be the US that everyone wants to come to.

Look, it sucks for these kids. I don't disagree. A better, more reasonable option, is to focus on making these countries better and safer for kids, unless you are suggesting the inhabitants of these countries are somehow genetically inferior to improve their own country without the help of white men- or their only hope is to run to a country dominated by white men. Because on the surface, that is what it seems you are suggesting...by accident I'm sure.

 

[BVS]

The problem is "Hate Speech" is way too vague to ban. What if suddenly those in power decided that deriding Christians or wearing a"Fightin' Irish" was now "Hate Speech" ? You would probably accuse me of hate speech for suggesting a "barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Yes, Free Speech is dying in Europe. I'm not sure that's a good thing. To speak out, or even express concern about the immigrants from the Middle East is labeled "Hate Speech" - so these citizens now have zero control over their own country. It's all in the hands of the government, and not the people.




The ACLU Explains Why They're Supporting The Rights Of Milo Yiannopoulos : NPR



So, if "Unite the Right" did not bring weapons and allowed antifa to pummel them sticks and rocks and bike locks, then you would support their right to march? I believe you have argued against their right to march at all. I have already explained I that I do not equate Free Speech with Free Violence.

If you have to twist, then your point is not worth making.

 

[AEON]

I am very comfortable with neo-Nazis being pummelled with sticks and rocks and I am not sure how we ended up at a point in time where we seem to like Nazis and think they should be given a platform.

Nobody said you had to like them...

 

[BVS]

Well, if we follow your logic, and we allow every child born into an unfortunate situation into the US, then the US would no longer be the US that everyone wants to come to.

Look, it sucks for these kids. I don't disagree. A better, more reasonable option, is to focus on making these countries better and safer for kids, unless you are suggesting the inhabitants of these countries are somehow genetically inferior to improve their own country without the help of white men- or their only hope is to run to a country dominated by white men. Because on the surface, that is what it seems you are suggesting...by accident I'm sure.

If you have to twist...

 

[anitram]

I believe you have argued against their right to march at all. I have already explained I that I do not equate Free Speech with Free Violence.

No, once again that's the lie that you've perpetuated by being totally unable to actually read my posts. You were called out on it by multiple people and here we are yet again.

Under your current laws they have a right to march. I have never said they didn't.

What I object to is your constant suggestion that if such a right was reasonably curtailed at all it's a slippery slope to heaven-knows-what. Not in Canada, not in Australia or New Zealand or in Europe has it been the case, but keep arguing nonsense.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

A better, more reasonable option, is to focus on making these countries better and safer for kids, unless you are suggesting the inhabitants of these countries are somehow genetically inferior to improve their own country without the help of white men- or their only hope is to run to a country dominated by white men. Because on the surface, that is what it seems you are suggesting...by accident I'm sure.

...wow...

 

[AEON]

If you have to twist...

I think the logic is crystal clear....sort of like Clinton's expansion of the "physical barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Logic says it simply does not scale to allow every disadvantaged kid to come to America.

 

[cobl04]

fuck!!!! exposed for the racist I truly am!!! I bow down to aeon's moral superiority

 

[AEON]

I find this stance (I've seen it from many people) to be completely ridiculous, extremely cold and callous. You won the birth lotto.

Aren't you suggesting that Mexican kids also won the "birth lotto" because they are close enough to get into an open US, while the billions of other children across the globe just have to stay put...that seems so unfair.