US Politics III - Page 39 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-14-2017, 06:29 PM   #761
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,473
Local Time: 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
The "center" is also very deceiving because while the Republicans are very good at getting the hard/far right to vote on their behalf (note how the vast majority of evangelicals eagerly support a philandering, thrice-married immoral, areligious liar), the far left has not been politically involved or engaged in the same way. So when we talk of the center, it's usually people simply ignoring that wing, which ultimately can only result in the center actually falling somewhere on the right end of the spectrum.




The problem, though, is that the far left doesn't vote. Especially not in midterms. They can complain about being uninspired or alienated or whatever, but they don't show up. The existential threat of Trump didn't get them to show up. Their right wing equivalents have no problems rallying behind similarly uninspiring candidates, and until they come to understand politics as is, then they will continue to be ignored.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:03 PM   #762
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
The problem, though, is that the far left doesn't vote. Especially not in midterms. They can complain about being uninspired or alienated or whatever, but they don't show up. The existential threat of Trump didn't get them to show up. Their right wing equivalents have no problems rallying behind similarly uninspiring candidates, and until they come to understand politics as is, then they will continue to be ignored.
That's exactly it. Like I said, the Democrats have never managed to mobilize this contingent in the same way that the GOP has managed to mobilize the Tea Party types or the Trumpsters.

But part of it is that the Democrats themselves have not been willing to go much further left in their platforms. So it isn't just a matter of these voters not showing up. Contrast that with the Republicans who have no issue pandering to the absolute worst elements of our society. Whatever gets them elected.
__________________

anitram is offline  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:12 PM   #763
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,473
Local Time: 05:03 PM
US Politics III

Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
That's exactly it. Like I said, the Democrats have never managed to mobilize this contingent in the same way that the GOP has managed to mobilize the Tea Party types or the Trumpsters.



But part of it is that the Democrats themselves have not been willing to go much further left in their platforms. So it isn't just a matter of these voters not showing up. Contrast that with the Republicans who have no issue pandering to the absolute worst elements of our society. Whatever gets them elected.



Seems chicken and egg -- do Republicans embrace the worst among us because they vote, or do Republicans get them to vote because they offer awful legislation that harms people?

I think this Medicare for all movement in the Senate will be an interesting test. It's what the Left wants most, single payer. Will they show up? Or is it more fun to complain and whine and be cynical?

Granted, elections on a Tuesday are difficult when you work 3 jobs and aren't retired.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:46 PM   #764
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,974
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I think this Medicare for all movement in the Senate will be an interesting test. It's what the Left wants most, single payer. Will they show up? Or is it more fun to complain and whine and be cynical?
hopefully it generates some real national discussion about the idea at the very least.
DaveC is online now  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:49 PM   #765
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,473
Local Time: 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
hopefully it generates some real national discussion about the idea at the very least.


I think it will be reality within 10 years.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:44 PM   #766
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I think it will be reality within 10 years.
Did you read the article on Politico a couple of days ago where they discussed private DNC polls which were troubling in the sense that there was poor public support for this? But when you get deeper into the weeds it seems that most people are against it because they think that it's a pie-in-the-sky proposition. Of course there is also significant opposition from those who think it's one step closer to communism.
anitram is offline  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:50 PM   #767
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,473
Local Time: 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Did you read the article on Politico a couple of days ago where they discussed private DNC polls which were troubling in the sense that there was poor public support for this? But when you get deeper into the weeds it seems that most people are against it because they think that it's a pie-in-the-sky proposition. Of course there is also significant opposition from those who think it's one step closer to communism.



I didn't read it, but doesn't surprise me.

I think Obamacare was a needed first step. It broke the fever.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:36 PM   #768
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,215
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
Seems chicken and egg -- do Republicans embrace the worst among us because they vote, or do Republicans get them to vote because they offer awful legislation that harms people?

I think this Medicare for all movement in the Senate will be an interesting test. It's what the Left wants most, single payer. Will they show up? Or is it more fun to complain and whine and be cynical?

Granted, elections on a Tuesday are difficult when you work 3 jobs and aren't retired.
I think it's honest a split decision.

There are some who were Republicans who decided to go along with the party, and three wren others, like myself, who grew up and realized that there was something wrong.

I believe that the side who just went along is larger, mostly because I believe most people are stupid and the left doesn't try to talk to the stupid.

That sounds ridiculous, but I so believe that's why Trump won. ENOUGH stupid people voted for him.

The problem with stupid people is of course that they don't like being called Stupid people. That's why being called deplorable and "white privilege" doesn't work. Not because it isn't true, bit because it doesn't help win over stupid people.

Yes. Stupid people.

Come at me, aeon. I'm conservative n most things economically. Which once upon a Time was all that mattered.

Now being a conservative means defending neo Nazis? Go fuck yourself.

If you're truly a conservative and voted for Trump because you thought he'd be conservative, the. You're a Stupid person
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:58 PM   #769
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I think it will be reality within 10 years.
I think you are probably right.

If we can get some great (non-partisan if possible) auditors to knock out the scammers, I think we will see medical costs dramatically reduced - which will make single payer feasible.

Also, giving local clinics more leeway to utilize technology in order to keep the small things like colds, immunizations, twisted ankles...etc., out of the main system - so to speak. There is certainly some risk the system would have to accept (some misdiagnosed infection - the local clinic won't have House on staff). However, I currently work IBM Watson Health Commercial Operations - and the amount of data being thrown at that thing from all of the hospitals, universities, and clinics around the world is staggering. It's ability to diagnose is already fantastic, and is improving exponentially. If the local clinics and neighborhood doctors had access to Watson - that too, would greatly reduce overall cost.
AEON is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:00 AM   #770
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,473
Local Time: 05:03 PM
I will qualify my optimism by saying that, for right now, Medicare for All/Single Payer is an empty catchphrase devoid of any workable policies. We need to be as wary of the far left offering up plans devoid of facts and loaded with magic math as we are of the idiot "tax cuts will pay for themselves" folks on the other side.

This was how I made my decisions in 2016. I'm neither a fantasist nor a fabulist. Work has to be done.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:23 AM   #771
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,215
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Trump and I have finally found a middle ground.

ESPN's programming does indeed suck
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:12 AM   #772
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Trump and I have finally found a middle ground.

ESPN's programming does indeed suck
It's been a long slide downhill since the mid-90s...same with music
AEON is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 03:01 PM   #773
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 6,516
Local Time: 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I will qualify my optimism by saying that, for right now, Medicare for All/Single Payer is an empty catchphrase devoid of any workable policies. We need to be as wary of the far left offering up plans devoid of facts and loaded with magic math as we are of the idiot "tax cuts will pay for themselves" folks on the other side.

This was how I made my decisions in 2016. I'm neither a fantasist nor a fabulist. Work has to be done.


Careful or you'll be labeled establishment and wanting Wall Street to win.

Literally every thing I've read on this bill suggests the numbers don't add up without some additional work (i.e income taxes will need to go up a lot). This was with sales taxes, corporate taxes, and apparent savings that would come from less medical costs. None of those are lies but it still isn't enough to pay for this.

I do like the idea of phasing it in, as that is smart and would help with planning.

But it goes back to the root of the problem with Bernie and these socialist policies. There just isn't enough detail, and when the details do come out, it loses public support (polls showed that liberals jumped ship on this bill when higher income taxes were shown, ditto for government run healthcare slander)

If there is blame to go on, it is the more conservative democrats who refused to vote for Obamacare with the public option. I do think that's the next logical step in healthcare.

I appreciate Bernie bringing some of these issues to more mainstream audiences. I do wish he would go away though as he's just thrown up another proposal that won't work and now can go back to playing the I told you so victim. As well as his fan base, who will go after other Dems instead of the opposing party
BEAL is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 05:10 PM   #774
The Fly
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 296
Local Time: 02:03 PM
you have to consider the costs most of us are paying for health care now in that tax equation. Taxes increasing would be necessary, but the break point for reasonable people is when does it start to take expendable income out of your pocket?

If a single pay healthcare system ups my annual taxes by $3,500 but my annual outlay for healthcare that would be covered by the new system is $5,400, there is a net benefit. The anti-tax types will point to a huge tax raise..."unprecedented increase, taking YOUR money from you!!!" But if they take MY money and provide me a service cheaper than what I am paying on the open market for healthcare, and the national single pay aspect creates no-fee (not no-cost...no-fee) preventative maintenance for those below the poverty line who make up the largest population of those who go with no or catastrophic only insurance that costs us in indigent coverage after major illness that was preventable/could be mitigated by regular care? Now,I am seeing savings and the cost of operation could see realistic decreases as the general public becomes healthier?


That's what matters. And if the tax rate remains graduated, and this is paid from an increase of income tax, not sales taxes or usage taxes, then the cost is carried by those who are likely paying out the nose for healthcare anyway, and would be happy with a net decrease.

And, quite frankly, the argument of freedom to choose care/providers is largely a joke with limited numbers of doctors taking new patients/HMO/PPO based plans requiring referrals, etc. Or, even worse, you are charged monthly by your employer for an HRA account that they spill less than $100 a month into that is 80/20 up to $6000 after the HRA funds are exhausted (which occurs at $1200 for my major bank employer), so I pay $240 a month for the right to pay 80% of my bill after $1200 and up to $6000. So my medical costs depend on the calendar...when my kid blew her ACL in November, I paid to the deductible for that calendar year, then her rehab was a new calendar year and I got to run up to my deductible again. Then I am still paying 20% after $6000, so...yeah.

I could bear an increase in my annual taxes of $4000 a year and still come out ahead if it meant I no longer had to pay premiums or out of pocket.
Wide Awake n AZ is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 06:48 PM   #775
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,974
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wide Awake n AZ View Post
Or, even worse, you are charged monthly by your employer for an HRA account that they spill less than $100 a month into that is 80/20 up to $6000 after the HRA funds are exhausted (which occurs at $1200 for my major bank employer), so I pay $240 a month for the right to pay 80% of my bill after $1200 and up to $6000. So my medical costs depend on the calendar...when my kid blew her ACL in November, I paid to the deductible for that calendar year, then her rehab was a new calendar year and I got to run up to my deductible again. Then I am still paying 20% after $6000, so...yeah.
good lord.

70 bucks a month gets deducted off my pay and in return my healthcare costs for *everything* are zero. including prescriptions.

edit: there are things that aren't covered of course, i couldn't go get a nose job and have the government pay for it. but essentially anything non-elective is $0 cost to me.
DaveC is online now  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:10 PM   #776
Blue Crack Supplier
 
dazzledbylight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the sound dancing - w Bono & Edge :D
Posts: 34,830
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trojanchick99 View Post
Greece was not a unified nation as we know it, it consisted of various city-states. Therefore, Ancient Greek was a series of dialects. It didn't start to unify until the time of Alexander the Great and then the Roman Empire. This Greek was comprised of the two major dialects, Attic and Ionic.

People who know modern Greek can understand some Ancient dialects but it's analogous to modern English to old English.
Oh, duh, right, tjc! I often forget that fact (city-states). And the only ones that I know of were Athens, and Sparta.
Intersting, too, analogy of old English to modern.
Thanks!
dazzledbylight is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:15 PM   #777
Blue Crack Supplier
 
dazzledbylight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the sound dancing - w Bono & Edge :D
Posts: 34,830
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Vincent Vega, Baby Doll thank you also for your posts and article links! Not quite through the articles yet but read a major portion of them.
Dave C didn't getbto your longer posts yet, but i will.
dazzledbylight is offline  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:55 PM   #778
Blue Crack Supplier
 
dazzledbylight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the sound dancing - w Bono & Edge :D
Posts: 34,830
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trojanchick99 View Post
One of the issues is the GOP and right wing press label anything that isn't hard right as socialist. They say it enough and people start to believe the Democratic Party is socialist which it isn't.
THIS.
And it's been going on this way since FDR's New Deal (then LBJ's Great Society)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
The problem, though, is that the far left doesn't vote. Especially not in midterms. They can complain about being uninspired or alienated or whatever, but they don't show up. The existential threat of Trump didn't get them to show up. Their right wing equivalents have no problems rallying behind similarly uninspiring candidates, and until they come to understand politics as is, then they will continue to be ignored.
I wish we could break down our political labels into at least one or two more category here in the USA on the leftward side.
Say Center, Center Left, Middle Left, Left, and Far Left?

I'm thinking in terms or questions of , well, here we have neo-liberals, liberals (FDR types), Democratic Socialists and then we have people handing out "The Socialist Workers Party" paper [and maybe a few other socialist groups?] and Communists. Anarchists I guess are sort of in their own category.

So does a group like the SWP even think that DSA are a "legit" socialist party? And are these two in anyway analogous to any parties in Europe (and Australia, New Zealand)?

As far as my understanding, experience of neo-liberals is they do tend to be more left on social issues than on economics.
Some people put social issues on a lower level than economies. I don't.

So in my thinking say this Middle Left category might equate to FDR liberals. Left would be DSA. Far Left would be SWP, Communists.
dazzledbylight is offline  
Old 09-16-2017, 07:09 AM   #779
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,215
Local Time: 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
i couldn't go get a nose job and have the government pay for it. .
What's that all aboot?
Headache in a Suitcase is online now  
Old 09-16-2017, 11:30 AM   #780
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
trojanchick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Los Feliz, CA (between Hollywood and Downtown LA)
Posts: 8,352
Local Time: 02:03 PM
I'm sure the Orange Orangutan in Chief will have a measured and thoughtful response to the protests in St Louis.
__________________

trojanchick99 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×