US Politics III - Page 32 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-11-2017, 07:46 PM   #621
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,724
Local Time: 04:22 PM
Just going to add to the thanks to Dave for his post. Truly, the amount of forethought and insight those ancient civilizations had is remarkable and impressive. I am in awe of their sheer intelligence and inventiveness, and grateful to them for doing what they could to preserve their findings and explorations in the midst of whatever upheaval they were going through, and encouraging and stressing the importance of learning and education among the people.

Also, that royal tomb looks really cool. It's fascinating to see how many structures from that time period are still standing to this day. I'm glad they still exist.
__________________

Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 07:57 PM   #622
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,975
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Also, that royal tomb looks really cool. It's fascinating to see how many structures from that time period are still standing to this day. I'm glad they still exist.
if you want to visit it it's in ravenna, italy, strangely right next to a giant rail yard. built in the 520s for the gothic king theodoric. it's also notable that the dome and upper level are built in a uniquely gothic style of stoneworking, and not a copy of roman or greek style (though the pedestal is roman style).

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Teo...6!4d12.2091687

but it was built less than a century after the fall of rome so i guess the "goths" didn't really do anything and the credit should go to the romans, or some stupid horseshit like that.
__________________

DaveC is online now  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:01 PM   #623
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
i'm laughing because you're looking at this in the most simplistic shallow way possible and from that drawing extraordinary conclusions for the purpose of shoehorning them in to some narrative that is demonstrably wrong.

but if you insist...

 


what we refer to (and what you're thinking of) as "the byzantine empire" only controlled the middle east for about 200 years after the fall of rome and the western empire. after the rise of islam it controlled a large portion of the balkans and greece, and parts of asia minor and anatolia, but almost nothing outside of that besides antioch and the bottom part of the boot of italy. it spent the rest of its days fighting the sultanate of rum, crusaders, and turks.

take a look at this and tell us again how the empire stayed "more or less intact for over 1000 years":



constantinople itself was sacked by crusaders in 1204 and not retaken by the byzantines for another 50 years. at that point the city was no longer a centre of culture and education and learning, it was drastically depopulated and barely able to defend itself for the next 200 years despite being the single most strategically defensible location on earth.

constantinople was indeed a highly cultured, educated, scientific city for a few hundred years after the fall of western rome. nobody's denying that. the architectural accomplishments in particular of the eastern empire are nothing short of spectacular in the days when the largest thing built west of constantinople between around 450-1000 was this royal tomb:



nor am i trying to say that the byzantine world contributed nothing to the renaissance either. that would be equally stupid. when the crusaders sacked the city many of the documents in the university were taken off to western europe, even though the vast majority were lost when the university was burned to the ground (there's western europe showing off that "philosophical DNA" you seem to think is inherent).

but what is bugging me most about this is your instant rejection of the islamic sciences being the major force in advancing knowledge in the middle ages, as if even the notion is offensive.

the "house of wisdom" was founded by the abbasid caliph in baghdad in the late 700s. he invited scholars from all over the world to come and study there, and hired huge teams of scribes and translators to copy any written material that could be gathered from all corners of the caliphate into arabic. these included greek texts, chinese texts, indian texts, african texts, and very often these translations are the only surviving copy of the original documents that we still have today. these documents were about every scholarly subject you can think of, from alchemy to medicine to mathematics to architecture. they invented calendars, weights and measures, and methods for keeping time and making measurements that we still use today. they invented the number system we use (we still call them "arabic numerals"). they invented the very concept of "zero". without the islamic caliph founding the house of wisdom, there would quite literally be *enormous* gaps in human knowledge that we would either simply not know about anymore or would have had to rediscover from scratch. that's a fact.

wisdom and knowledge were so highly prized by the caliphate that peace treaties after wars won by the caliphate frequently claimed books and scrolls as the victor's spoils of war rather than the usual gold and grain plunder.

the caliph himself made frequent trips to cairo to sponsor and personally take part in the first archaeological excavations of the great pyramids of giza. the west would not begin to approach archaeology in a scientific way for many centuries.

take a look up in the sky tonight and see if you can find the stars altair, deneb, and aldebaran - those stars and dozens of others were first categorized and named by arab astronomers. the milky way galaxy was first postulated to be an enormous nebula of faraway stars by arab scientists in andalusia (spain), even though this couldn't be proven until hundreds of years later when galileo had a telescope powerful enough to observe it and confirm that they were right.

muhammad al-khwarizmi introduced the decimal system into mathematics, invented algebra, more or less invented trigonometry, greatly advanced geography (building off the work of ptolemy) and accurately (for the time) mapped the world on behalf of the caliph. his latinized name (algoritmi) are where the very word "algorithm" comes from. he was a persian and did all his work in baghdad. again, he invented an entirely new field of mathematics - this is an accomplishment on par with isaac newton inventing calculus.

i could go on and on but this post is already getting way too long and i think (hope) that by now i've proven my point.

basically, for you to claim that emphasizing the vitality of the islamic sciences to the subsequent western renaissance is "revisionist/PC garbage" is laughably ignorant and frankly offensive whitewashing.
DaveC,

Nicely done. Thank you for taking the time (and I love maps!) I hope to spend more time on your post this evening. Until then - I did want to you know your reply is very much appreciated.
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:09 PM   #624
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 05:22 PM
US Politics III

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Doubted? No. Overemphasized and exaggerated compared to the collosal achievements of the Western Civilization? Yes. Did Europe require Islam to preserve this knowledge? No. These regions were Hellenestic...with some overlapping Persian influence.

And let's not forget most of those "Muslim" achievements came within 100 years of taking over Hellenestic territories...before the fundamentalists eventually won and Greek philosophy and math lost...

And we got off on this tangent because of references to the now cliche and debunked myths of the European Dark Ages...and the downplaying of the influence of Byzantium...

However, his recent response is certainly worthy of this forum...and I love maps.


You are insufferable and hands down the second most intellectually dishonest poster we've had in this forum.

If you're not having issues comprehending a person's post, you're twisting it to say something you want them to say. When you're not doing that, revision is your last ditch effort.

If this is the only way to hold your worldview, then your worldview is shit.

I've watched you lie, accuse me of supporting slavery, accuse others of genetic superiority, deny, and be completely intellectually dishonest every chance you could.

You will try and play conservative victim, but the truth is; you are neither.
BVS is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:17 PM   #625
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
You are insufferable and hands down the second most intellectually dishonest poster we've had in this forum.

If you're not having issues comprehending a person's post, you're twisting it to say something you want them to say. When you're not doing that, revision is your last ditch effort.

If this is the only way to hold your worldview, then your worldview is shit.

I've watched you lie, accuse me of supporting slavery, accuse others of genetic superiority, deny, and be completely intellectually dishonest every chance you could.

You will try and play conservative victim, but the truth is; you are neither.
Well...at least we agree on Voter ID...
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:18 PM   #626
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 89
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Why does this argument have to be an either/or proposition? Don't the contributions of both Western civilization and Eastern thinkers have merit? It seems like some on this forum are so insistent in their defense of non-Western thought that it's become a sort of sledgehammer issue. Certainly these societies made enormous contributions, but it doesn't take anything away from the likes of Rousseau, Locke, Einstein, etc. I personally think Bono's defense of American exceptionalism has a great deal of merit. No, we're probably not the easiest or best country to live in in regards to standard of living, but a lot of that has to do with the American taxpayer's burden of keeping up a strong military.

Aeon, my background is white, American and female. I'm pretty mixed in terms of ethnic background--Scandinavian, Eastern and Southern European. I was raised in a lackadaisical Catholic tradition and have tried to become a better Catholic as an adult, lol. I have family members who live in the middle East by choice--Saudi Arabia and Qatar--and have done so for decades, so I keep up with world events quite well, or at least as best as I can. I'm fairly moderate politically but lean Democrat because I want to see lower and middle class people have a chance to improve their lot. But I do find common ground with lots of moderate folks and don't mind some Republicans, such as John McCain. I am very distrustful of extremists of all stripes. I don't find much of merit in the ideology of S. Bannon for example, but I probably could have lived with Jeb Bush, although I wouldn't have voted for him.
shineon is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:23 PM   #627
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,186
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Well...at least we agree on Voter ID...
Bluer White is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:26 PM   #628
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shineon View Post
Why does this argument have to be an either/or proposition? Don't the contributions of both Western civilization and Eastern thinkers have merit? It seems like some on this forum are so insistent in their defense of non-Western thought that it's become a sort of sledgehammer issue. Certainly these societies made enormous contributions, but it doesn't take anything away from the likes of Rousseau, Locke, Einstein, etc. I personally think Bono's defense of American exceptionalism has a great deal of merit. No, we're probably not the easiest or best country to live in in regards to standard of living, but a lot of that has to do with the American taxpayer's burden of keeping up a strong military.
All excellent points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shineon View Post
I was raised in a lackadaisical Catholic tradition and have tried to become a better Catholic as an adult, lol.
I was certainly picking up the Catholic "vibe"

Quote:
Originally Posted by shineon View Post
I have family members who live in the middle East by choice--Saudi Arabia and Qatar--and have done so for decades, so I keep up with world events quite well, or at least as best as I can. I'm fairly moderate politically but lean Democrat because I want to see lower and middle class people have a chance to improve their lot. But I do find common ground with lots of moderate folks and don't mind some Republicans, such as John McCain. I am very distrustful of extremists of all stripes. I don't find much of merit in the ideology of S. Bannon for example, but I probably could have lived with Jeb Bush, although I wouldn't have voted for him.
Very interesting background. Thank you for sharing! We probably don't differ too much on our world view..but I must concede, I am sort of liking Bannon's 60 minute interview...
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:40 PM   #629
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,975
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shineon View Post
Why does this argument have to be an either/or proposition? Don't the contributions of both Western civilization and Eastern thinkers have merit? It seems like some on this forum are so insistent in their defense of non-Western thought that it's become a sort of sledgehammer issue. Certainly these societies made enormous contributions, but it doesn't take anything away from the likes of Rousseau, Locke, Einstein, etc.
why would the works of medieval islamic scholars take anything away from enlightenment philosophers and 20th century theoretical physicists?

btw, einstein probably wouldn't have gotten very far without algebra...just sayin'
DaveC is online now  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:03 PM   #630
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,370
Local Time: 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shineon View Post
I personally think Bono's defense of American exceptionalism has a great deal of merit. No, we're probably not the easiest or best country to live in in regards to standard of living, but a lot of that has to do with the American taxpayer's burden of keeping up a strong military.
Why do you think American exceptionalism has any merit?
Vlad n U 2 is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:37 PM   #631
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
why would the works of medieval islamic scholars take anything away from enlightenment philosophers and 20th century theoretical physicists?

btw, einstein probably wouldn't have gotten very far without algebra...just sayin'
Yes, algebra was probably developed in lands occupied by Islam - but you are giving that one achievement equal weight to everything that came before it and after it. If Western Civilization were a baseball team and contributions to math and science were the games - its season record would be along the lines of 155-7.
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:43 PM   #632
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: nazi punks fuck off
Posts: 21,975
Local Time: 05:22 PM
because god forbid anyone just appreciate the genius of an islamic scientist for what it is.
DaveC is online now  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:47 PM   #633
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
because god forbid anyone just appreciate the genius of an islamic scientist for what it is.
Fair enough. I will do that. I will appreciate the genius of an islamic scientist for what it is.
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:56 PM   #634
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
What your thoughts on Steve Bannon's 60 minute interview? On his war on the GOP?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minu...ar-on-the-gop/
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 10:00 PM   #635
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
trojanchick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Los Feliz, CA (between Hollywood and Downtown LA)
Posts: 8,352
Local Time: 03:22 PM
I cannot believe what I'm reading. I just can't. How is acknowledging that some great leaps in human knowledge and invention came from non-Judeo/Christian civilizations take anything away from the accomplishments of Western Europe?

If we're being honest here early Christians did a lot of harm to our knowledge base and our repositories of history. I mean they didn't call it the Dark Ages for nothing.

I love history. I was a Classics major and can read Latin and 5th Century Attic Greek. These civilizations contributed much to the furthering of human knowledge. No one is saying they didn't. However, ancient China, Babylonia, Egypt, Persia, India also did and to ignore their contributions is idiotic.
trojanchick99 is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 10:15 PM   #636
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
What your thoughts on Steve Bannon's 60 minute interview? On his war on the GOP?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minu...ar-on-the-gop/


A drunk hell bent on revisionism and nationalism; I'm sure you loved it.
BVS is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 10:30 PM   #637
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,663
Local Time: 04:22 PM
US Politics III

Bannon's whole "you could not be more dead wrong" on immigrants helping strengthen and build this country is astonishing in its ignorance and revisionist white-washing.

Aeon, you say you like to argue, fine. You're not alone here in that. However, I have to admit to feeling a bit... unsettled that your entire position seems to be based on the premise that white, western European based culture is superior to all others, so what's so wrong with wanting to keep America white?
Diemen is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 11:44 PM   #638
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Aeon, you say you like to argue, fine. You're not alone here in that. However, I have to admit to feeling a bit... unsettled that your entire position seems to be based on the premise that white, western European based culture is superior to all others, so what's so wrong with wanting to keep America white?
I can see that. From my point of view, ever since I was college student, I feel like I've had to defend Western Civilization. There's been an over-emphasis on the negative and not enough building on the positive. So, I can see how it comes across that I am arguing that Western Civilization is superior, when I feel that I am just trying to bring the perception of it back to even.

My daughter just started her first year of college. This summer, we were just talking about current events, family, history...and then her face saddened and she said, "I feel like we don't have a history. Everyone else has this great history - and we have nothing." I was shocked on many levels. One one hand - I realized I had failed her, because our family has an awesome American history, and on the other hand, how sad is it that someone of European descent - who's American heritage traces all the way to the 1650s - can graduate from High School without knowing the history of her own people? (she made straight A's)
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 11:46 PM   #639
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
A drunk hell bent on revisionism and nationalism; I'm sure you loved it.
I admit, I'm starting to like aspects of Economic Nationalism...
AEON is offline  
Old 09-11-2017, 11:48 PM   #640
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trojanchick99 View Post

I love history. I was a Classics major and can read Latin and 5th Century Attic Greek. T
I think that is so Kick Ass!
__________________

AEON is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×