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Old 09-10-2017, 09:41 PM   #581
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AEON - just out of curiosity, do you know how long your family has been in the USA? Are they recent European immigrants? Or Mayflower types?
My ancestors arrived in the 1650s in Virginia. I am a member of the Sons of the American Revolution (which requires documented proof of lineage).
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:46 PM   #582
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Dave C, you may look at copying and translating as primitive skills, but until Gutenberg arrived on the scene, they were essentially to preserving knowledge.
Absolutely, the monks would memorize entire books of the Bible (some would memorize the entire Bible). The illumination of those Bibles would often serve a memory markers.

They believed that what you memorized actually shaped your brain. And it turns out, they weren't exactly that far off about that.
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:49 PM   #583
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You have an interesting background, Aeon. I think the Jesuits are generally good thinkers and encourage one to questions one's assumptions. In that sense, I think they encourage a healthy intellectual stance. I'm guessing they formed in you a habit of intellectual curiosity and openness to questioning ? I can certainly see that trait in the current Pope, a Jesuit.
Thank you, Yes, I think they certainly encouraged intellectual curiosity and an openness to questioning.

If I may ask, what is your background?
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:58 PM   #584
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**please don't forget the white people!!!**

you can't help yourself.

this is historically not true.
What is not true about it?

The end of the Byzantine Empire was May 29th 1453, when Constantinople fell the Muslim Turks.

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Impact on the Renaissance. The migration waves of Byzantine scholars and émigrés in the period following the sacking of Constantinople and the fall of Constantinople in 1453 is considered by many scholars key to the revival of Greek and Roman studies that led to the development of the Renaissance humanism and science.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:21 PM   #585
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You're not even misinterpreting. You're inventing something totally outside of what I said.
Then what did you mean by "stem the tide" when I was talking about Voter ID?
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:51 PM   #586
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Dave C, you may look at copying and translating as primitive skills
no, i never said they were primitive skills at all. you're putting words in my mouth.

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What is not true about it?

The end of the Byzantine Empire was May 29th 1453, when Constantinople fell the Muslim Turks.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople
byzantium and constantinople were a shadow of what you think of as "the byzantine empire" by the 1200s much less the 1450s. the rise of islam and after that the crusades destroyed anatolia as the eastern centre of knowledge and shifted that base mostly to baghdad, the capital of the islamic caliphate.

i'm a little too buzzed from drinking during football today to get into it all in depth now. but if you want me to tomorrow, i will elaborate.
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:50 PM   #587
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no, i never said they were primitive skills at all. you're putting words in my mouth.
if it helps, i have a master's in translation and i didn't think you were saying they were primitive skills either
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:26 AM   #588
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no, i never said they were primitive skills at all. you're putting words in my mouth.



byzantium and constantinople were a shadow of what you think of as "the byzantine empire" by the 1200s much less the 1450s. the rise of islam and after that the crusades destroyed anatolia as the eastern centre of knowledge and shifted that base mostly to baghdad, the capital of the islamic caliphate.

i'm a little too buzzed from drinking during football today to get into it all in depth now. but if you want me to tomorrow, i will elaborate.
LOL. Well, you earned some points for being buzzed, watching football, and posting about the impact of the last days of the Byzantine Empire.

No need to elaborate on the matter (unless you want to). We can end up debating endlessly about how much or how little the Fall of Constantinople fueled the Renaissance. You will find sources that claim less. I will find sources that claim more.

However, my ultimate goal was to demonstrate that people forget about the Byzantine Empire when they bring up the Middle Ages - and how it remained more or less intact for over 1000 years...twice as long as the Roman Empire. Philosophy, art, and science were in good hands - and when the time came, these intellectuals did migrate west and, at a minimum, helped fuel the Renaissance - which eventually led to the Enlightenment and the birth of America...still considered the best nation on earth according to number of people on this planet that want to (or do) migrate to it. Our cultural heritage is the tree that provides the fruit.

So no, Western Civilization was not reliant on the Muslims, that's just revisionist/PC garbage...in fact,Europe spent a good chunk of the Middle Ages fighting off Muslim invaders (see Spain, Sicily, and Eastern Europe). I am totally with Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens on their critique of Islam.

And the proof is in the pudding - look at the countries where Islam dominates...do you want to live there? Heck, it seems even they don't want to live there. The so-called "Golden Age of Islam" was only a result of the plunder from taking over wealthy Christendom lands in Asia Minor and North Africa (and eventually Spain) - after their conquest was stopped by the likes of Charles Martel - that gold eventually ran out...and, well...it's been about the same for a long, long...long time without much hope of things getting better.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:06 AM   #589
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America isn't even close to the best country on the planet. Even if it were, to single it out as somehow the sole inheritor of the genius that is western civilisation is... fairly blinkered.

At the very least, I'd warn against hubris, because there's nothing in the previous post that couldn't have been substituted with the words 'The British Empire' a century ago.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:39 AM   #590
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America isn't even close to the best country on the planet. Even if it were, to single it out as somehow the sole inheritor of the genius that is western civilisation is... fairly blinkered.

At the very least, I'd warn against hubris, because there's nothing in the previous post that couldn't have been substituted with the words 'The British Empire' a century ago.
Unlike the British Empire...the sun never sets on those who "dream" to run...into the arms...of America.
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:04 AM   #591
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LOL. Well, you earned some points for being buzzed, watching football, and posting about the impact of the last days of the Byzantine Empire.

No need to elaborate on the matter (unless you want to). We can end up debating endlessly about how much or how little the Fall of Constantinople fueled the Renaissance. You will find sources that claim less. I will find sources that claim more.

However, my ultimate goal was to demonstrate that people forget about the Byzantine Empire when they bring up the Middle Ages - and how it remained more or less intact for over 1000 years...twice as long as the Roman Empire. Philosophy, art, and science were in good hands - and when the time came, these intellectuals did migrate west and, at a minimum, helped fuel the Renaissance - which eventually led to the Enlightenment and the birth of America...still considered the best nation on earth according to number of people on this planet that want to (or do) migrate to it. Our cultural heritage is the tree that provides the fruit.

So no, Western Civilization was not reliant on the Muslims, that's just revisionist/PC garbage...in fact,Europe spent a good chunk of the Middle Ages fighting off Muslim invaders (see Spain, Sicily, and Eastern Europe). I am totally with Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens on their critique of Islam.

And the proof is in the pudding - look at the countries where Islam dominates...do you want to live there? Heck, it seems even they don't want to live there. The so-called "Golden Age of Islam" was only a result of the plunder from taking over wealthy Christendom lands in Asia Minor and North Africa (and eventually Spain) - after their conquest was stopped by the likes of Charles Martel - that gold eventually ran out...and, well...it's been about the same for a long, long...long time without much hope of things getting better.


Today's history lesson brought to you by Breitbart, the letter K, and the number 3
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:49 AM   #592
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That's a little unfair, you think you have to be in the fucking KKK to think the way AEON does?

That said, it's a fairly narrow reading of history, suggestive of someone who's been marinating in Gibbon for too long (although he didn't have many kind words for the 'Empire of the Greeks' admittedly).

I don't want a bar of Harris or Hitchens - that loathsome cheerleader for war without end - but their breed of heavily armed liberalism is, or was, unfortunately all too mainstream.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:06 AM   #593
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That's a little unfair, you think you have to be in the fucking KKK to think the way AEON does?

That said, it's a fairly narrow reading of history, suggestive of someone who's been marinating in Gibbon for too long (although he didn't have many kind words for the 'Empire of the Greeks' admittedly).

I don't want a bar of Harris or Hitchens - that loathsome cheerleader for war without end - but their breed of heavily armed liberalism is, or was, unfortunately all too mainstream.


Do you think that post was meant to be taken seriously?

It's a wildly revisionist take on history, and yes I believe one that's been revised and adopted by certain groups in order to whitewash.

This in conjunction with someone who projects what he wants on people's comments and has had multiple comprehension issues, I don't find his take surprising and it's probably shared by a large portion in America.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:35 AM   #594
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Yeah, so like I said, all too mainstream a view.

How the fuck am I supposed to know if you're serious or not?
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:49 AM   #595
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Yeah, so like I said, all too mainstream a view.

How the fuck am I supposed to know if you're serious or not?


Well I was using a reference to a children's tv show(Sesame Street), but maybe it's a US show?
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:41 AM   #596
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Then what did you mean by "stem the tide" when I was talking about Voter ID?
What I meant is what I said - demographics is destiny. It is obvious to anybody who has studied US demographics for even 5 minutes that there are major shifts underway. Latinos/Hispanic will make up the largest group in the USA in not too many years. Those are just the facts on the ground. The AA population also has bigger growth than the Caucasian one. These communities by and large vote for the Democrats - the AA almost uniformly (~90%, with African American women being the single most "dependable" voting block in America), and Latinos/Hispanics by a very large margin. Add to that the fact the younger generation also leans left. The Republicans therefore have been using Voter ID laws, in combination with appalling and, as the federal courts are increasingly ruling, illegal gerrymandering to depress the minority vote. Because their policies run directly in contrast to the interest of these communities. But hey, keep at it. What I'm saying is that eventually these laws will become totally ineffective because the numbers will overwhelm them. The white South Africans had Bantustans once too...we see how those turned out for them.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:10 AM   #597
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LOL. Well, you earned some points for being buzzed, watching football, and posting about the impact of the last days of the Byzantine Empire.

No need to elaborate on the matter (unless you want to). We can end up debating endlessly about how much or how little the Fall of Constantinople fueled the Renaissance. You will find sources that claim less. I will find sources that claim more.

However, my ultimate goal was to demonstrate that people forget about the Byzantine Empire when they bring up the Middle Ages - and how it remained more or less intact for over 1000 years...twice as long as the Roman Empire. Philosophy, art, and science were in good hands - and when the time came, these intellectuals did migrate west and, at a minimum, helped fuel the Renaissance - which eventually led to the Enlightenment and the birth of America...still considered the best nation on earth according to number of people on this planet that want to (or do) migrate to it. Our cultural heritage is the tree that provides the fruit.

So no, Western Civilization was not reliant on the Muslims, that's just revisionist/PC garbage...in fact,Europe spent a good chunk of the Middle Ages fighting off Muslim invaders (see Spain, Sicily, and Eastern Europe). I am totally with Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens on their critique of Islam.

And the proof is in the pudding - look at the countries where Islam dominates...do you want to live there? Heck, it seems even they don't want to live there. The so-called "Golden Age of Islam" was only a result of the plunder from taking over wealthy Christendom lands in Asia Minor and North Africa (and eventually Spain) - after their conquest was stopped by the likes of Charles Martel - that gold eventually ran out...and, well...it's been about the same for a long, long...long time without much hope of things getting better.


there is so much factually wrong with this post that i'm truly having a difficult time figuring out where to begin to refute all of this...like i genuinely can't tell if you're really this ignorant about such an enormous swath of history and in desperate need of several lessons or if you're just blatantly making shit up to dishonestly advance a narrative. and then you have the balls to complain about revisionism...holy shit dude. are you for real right now?
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:46 PM   #598
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there is so much factually wrong with this post that i'm truly having a difficult time figuring out where to begin to refute all of this...like i genuinely can't tell if you're really this ignorant about such an enormous swath of history and in desperate need of several lessons or if you're just blatantly making shit up to dishonestly advance a narrative. and then you have the balls to complain about revisionism...holy shit dude. are you for real right now?
There is perhaps some unnecessary controversy around what I posted because of the Age of Political Correctness, but I didn't make anything up. Here are some Wikipedia articles for you (about as neutral as you are going to find.) There are certainly more scholarly works out there if you are eager to research this time period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E...Byzantine_wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...he_Middle_Ages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna

Additional Reading:
6 Reasons the Dark Ages Weren’t So Dark - History Lists
How the Middle Ages Really Were | HuffPost
MYTHS ABOUT THE MIDDLE AGES
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...page&q&f=false

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The cornerstone of Western thought, beginning in ancient Greece and continuing through the Middle Ages and Renaissance, is the idea of rationalism in various spheres of life, especially religion, developed by Hellenistic philosophy, Scholasticism, and humanism. The Catholic Church was for centuries at the center of the development of the values, ideas, science, laws, and institutions which constitute Western civilization. Empiricism later gave rise to the scientific method during the Scientific revolution and the Enlightenment. Values of Western culture have, throughout history, been derived from political thought, widespread employment of rational argument favouring freethought, assimilation of human rights, the need for equality and democracy.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:54 PM   #599
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Well, the Democrats can keep ignoring them, and keep losing elections. And as Voter ID laws creep closer to becoming reality - the Democrats will continue to struggle to retain the white (and predict the black and latino) middle class.
So you struggle to see the racism and white privilege engrained in our political system, yet make a comment like this?

Right.
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Old 09-11-2017, 01:09 PM   #600
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What I meant is what I said - demographics is destiny. It is obvious to anybody who has studied US demographics for even 5 minutes that there are major shifts underway.
I certainly don't dispute that.

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Latinos/Hispanic will make up the largest group in the USA in not too many years.
Because of legal - or illegal - immigration? I think that would make a difference on attitudes.

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Those are just the facts on the ground. The AA population also has bigger growth than the Caucasian one. These communities by and large vote for the Democrats - the AA almost uniformly (~90%, with African American women being the single most "dependable" voting block in America), and Latinos/Hispanics by a very large margin.
I don't dispute this.

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Add to that the fact the younger generation also leans left.
They may lean Left, but they don't turn out to vote in the numbers they should

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The Republicans therefore have been using Voter ID laws, in combination with appalling and, as the federal courts are increasingly ruling, illegal gerrymandering to depress the minority vote.
I only care about the Voter ID laws - the gerrymandering, well both sides are guilty of that. I'm certainly open to reforming that mess.

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Because their policies run directly in contrast to the interest of these communities. But hey, keep at it. What I'm saying is that eventually these laws will become totally ineffective because the numbers will overwhelm them. The white South Africans had Bantustans once too...we see how those turned out for them.
I don't think that the Voter ID will stop illegal immigration or prevent America from becoming less white. However, it does appeal to common sense (good order) and will remove controversy about the validity of vote counts.

I think it is wrong to assume that minorities will always vote for the Democrats. Many Latinos have conservative values and will be drawn to the Republican party over time for that reason. It will take another few election cycles to see if "Economic Nationalism" catches on with voters in the inner-cities...
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