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Old 09-10-2017, 01:19 AM   #561
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Ok, then let's start with jobs?

Did they steal them?

Are they gone?

Are they working harder and earning less?

Let's have an honest discussion about the rust belt.
Challenge accepted.

It's a bit late, but I look forward to this discussion. I think we will both come away better for it.

Thank you. Take Care.

(going to listen to U2's new single again before I go to bed...man, it's really catchy!)
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:06 AM   #562
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Make sure you work super hard on voter ID laws. Even those can only stem the tide for so long.

Please correct me if I am misinterpreting - are you suggesting that America would be "better" if it was less white? If so, please inform us what is inherently wrong about being white (given, as suggested, America would be better if we had less of it)
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:15 AM   #563
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Please correct me if I am misinterpreting - are you suggesting that America would be "better" if it was less white? If so, please inform us what is inherently wrong about being white (given, as suggested, America would be better if we had less of it)
I'm absolutely not speaking for Anitram here, but I'll offer my own answer to this if you don't mind...
Yes. I think America would be better if it were less white.

Why?

Diversity is essential for successful evolution. And my take on life at the ripe age of 38 is that evolution is everything. How we evolve as people, as parents, as lawmakers, nations, etc - as well as a species.

Evolution needs diversity as when new and challenging circumstances arise, a diverse population can succeed - even if it's only a small portion of that population. The successful portion can then take the rest with them.

Politically/nationhood-wise, I think this is becoming ever more important. Jet airliners. Internet. Cell phones. International trade. Science marching forwards, answering question after question. All this shrinks the 'world' in a political sense.
As the world shrinks, more and more diverse views, ideas, systems, problems, solutions etc etc are thrust in the face of all of us.

There are opportunities - both good and bad - with this, but if America isn't taking the positive opportunities and other nations are, America will lose some of its political capital. It will essentially go backwards.
It might be a growing level of unrest on American soil, as traditionalists struggle to accept/understand new people/ideas. It might mean dropping productivity if the American economy fails to adapt to changing ways of manufacturing. It might mean environmental issues that become increasingly worse if left unchecked, while other countries deal with them earlier and prosper accordingly.

So I believe America needs to embrace diversity.

But less white? Well, yes. Less white.

'White man' comes from, geographically at least, a relatively small portion of the world. Most 'white' people come from similar nations, similar cultures, similar climates, similar religions. Of course there is massive diversity there. But I would argue there is less diversity there than a 'boatload' of immigrants from other ethnicities. Someone from India, a thousandth generation Indian, will bring different perspectives. Likewise someone from Ghana, or Indonesia, or Vietnam. Or Mexico.

Diversity will spread the risk, increase your options re adaptability, help educate and open the minds of conservative Americans to the world outside their borders, and make the country generally stronger.

Now, Aeon, please don't go off on a straw man argument, or any other logical fallacy, and defend white people. I'm not comparing white or yellow or green or striped people. I am not saying white people are any less, more, better, worse. I'm just saying diversity trumps uniformity.

Yes, the USA was largely dreamed up and constructed by white people. Never mind the magnificent civilisations that existed there for thousands of years prior to that. But yes, the USA of today is to an extent a product of white people.

But jet airliners, internet, satellite tv, etc etc, mean the world is a different place than it was in 1865.

So yes, I think America would be better in the future if the 'white' population was proportionally smaller than it is today.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:31 AM   #564
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So yes, I think America would be better in the future if the 'white' population was proportionally smaller than it is today.
Fair enough....so, if I follow you correctly, If America, built by white people (as you pointed out) was less white...it would be "better." So, according to the exact same logic, Africa (or African nations) would be better if it was... less black? Or South America (or South American nations) would be better if was... less brown? Because of jet liners and the Internet and such...they need more whites...as much as white America needs more blacks and browns....

Or, does "diversity" always mean less white people? Is it possible, in currently non-white countries...that "diversity" can mean more white people? If so, should white people start massively emigrating to those countries? (we would probably need to force them to go, the opposite problem of the US and Western Europe)

If not, why not? Why is it always "good" for nations to become less-white, but never good for nations to become more-white?
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Old 09-10-2017, 05:30 AM   #565
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Vincent Vega, that mammoth post... That would have taken some time to write. And the experiences, knowledge, perspectives are jolting.
You just broadened my mind and, I think, improved me.
Thank you.
Thanks. It turned out longer than I anticipated, but I wouldn't to give each point some merit.

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That's a hell of a post and a lot to take in. Thank you for being so patient and thoughtful. Your knowledge on the immigration crisis is obvious, and your personal experience certainly adds credibility to your response.

There is nothing you have posted here that I can really respond to - some of it is new information, some of it I simply agree with, and some of it (very little) is opinion that we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

I did make some assumptions, as we all do, in order to even have a discourse in anything outside one's career. I have always assumed antisemitism was found in the ultra-right end of the political spectrum (nationalism gone too far)...

And I do agree, especially in America, we tend to quickly put things into the either/or camp (left/right; liberal/conservative; Democrat/Republican). I also have many views that would be considered "liberal" - but I generally only engage on topics I disagree with in here - for no other reason than it is boring.

Again, thank you for the wonderful, informative post. Take Care.
Thanks for responding. I'm glad my perspective on those issues was worthwhile.
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:02 AM   #566
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Or, does "diversity" always mean less white people? Is it possible, in currently non-white countries...that "diversity" can mean more white people? If so, should white people start massively emigrating to those countries?
Diversity means diversity.

Mugabe went for the whole uniformity thing, kicking the white farmers off the land - I don't know a hell of a lot about Zimbabwe but the consensus seems to be that it was a negative move on several levels.

But to cut through the bullshit, and bearing in mind you like to argue (your words), I figure what you're really getting at here is, white-people-world is 'nicer' or 'better' than darker-people-world, therefore diversity only really flows/goes one way because, when it comes down to it, diversity is a term laced with condescending connotations. Is that the gist of it?

And yeah, I see that. But like BVS has said a number of times, you're shifting the goalposts here man. I responded to your question to Anitram, which was about America. I'm not arguing equivalencies, or moralities. I'm answering your question (to Anitram) - yeah, I think the USA would benefit, now and in the future, from being more ethnically diverse.

Do you?
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Old 09-10-2017, 10:51 AM   #567
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What a concise summary of Trump by David Simon:

Quote:
“Growing up is a phrase I would not use about the president of the United States. I don’t know where he grew up. I have no explanation, I have a million explanations, for this man and what he lacks as a human being. Certainly he’s misogynist and his understanding of sexual equality is minimal and he’s drawn to him an incredible reservoir of anger against women and against people of colour. There’s a lot of anger out there in American society; he’s drawn all of it to him and he’s weaponised it. It’s interesting.”
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...wire?CMP=fb_gu
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:09 PM   #568
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I just want people who are actually prepared for and understand the complexities of the job they're doing, that's the main point I'm making. Whether they go through the legislative means or go with an executive order, I want to know they've actually put some thought into either option when they're trying to pass something or change laws or whatnot.


And the constant tweeting doesn't help fix what you just described. On DACA, though, the president is trying to force some legislation.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:34 PM   #569
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But to cut through the bullshit, and bearing in mind you like to argue (your words), I figure what you're really getting at here is, white-people-world is 'nicer' or 'better' than darker-people-world, therefore diversity only really flows/goes one way because, when it comes down to it, diversity is a term laced with condescending connotations. Is that the gist of it?
I am not personally saying that "white-people-world" is better, the migration patterns of humans are suggesting that. And there are many who seem to be suggesting that it is not only desirable, but an actual human right for those currently living in"darker-people-world" to relocate to "white-people-world" (and in turn change "white-people-world" into '"darker-people-world"...this is the coming "tide" I think Amitram was referring to, taking over the voting numbers)

Is it racist for any race to not want to be displaced? I think this is a valid question.

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- yeah, I think the USA would benefit, now and in the future, from being more ethnically diverse.

Do you?
To some degree yes. I'm not sure how much though. I love our European heritage. I love that we have inherited the philosophical DNA of Athens, Sparta, Rome, Byzantium, and England. While I do find other cultures fascinating and interesting, to me - Western Civilization is what I'm drawn to (and apparently, so are a great many non-Westerners)
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:50 PM   #570
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US Politics III

Oh FFS :facepalm:

This is where the discussion went?!
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:53 PM   #571
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To some degree yes. I'm not sure how much though. I love our European heritage. I love that we have inherited the philosophical DNA of Athens, Sparta, Rome, Byzantium, and England. While I do find other cultures fascinating and interesting, to me - Western Civilization is what I'm drawn to (and apparently, so are a great many non-Westerners)


the only reason we still are even aware of the philosophical DNA of those cultures is because the "darker-people-world" (*cringe*) quite literally kept classical science and philosophy alive and invented advanced mathematics after rome collapsed.
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Old 09-10-2017, 04:47 PM   #572
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the only reason we still are even aware of the philosophical DNA of those cultures is because the "darker-people-world" (*cringe*) quite literally kept classical science and philosophy alive and invented advanced mathematics after rome collapsed.
True, but the monks did their share as well.
Aeon , let's talk about habits of the mind. These are begun in childhood and are hard to break or change. Did you grow up in a rigid or fundamentalist system? I notice your reverting to black/white thinking is a fairly ingrained habit of the mind for you. I'm not trying to judge you for this, just pointing out that that seems to be a groove you seem to fall back into quite easily. I think breaking the pattern of tribalism, which comes quite naturally to all humans myself included, is a good habit of the mind to practice.
I agree that Western Civilization has brought the world a good share of it's great ideas. Greece=Democracy, for example. The Judeo-Christian tradition of course originated in the Middle East. So there's really no one or the other, although S. Bannon would surely try to convince us otherwise.
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Old 09-10-2017, 05:34 PM   #573
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True, but the monks did their share as well.
"the monks" were masters of copying and translating and language arts but they weren't inventing entirely new fields of science and philosophy the way scholars in the islamic world and china were in the 5th to 13th century CE. the renaissance was largely fueled by italian intellectuals discovering greek translations of the arabic works of islamic science that had been brought to italy by genoese and venetian merchants operating in the eastern mediterranean. the mongols drove a lot of that knowledge and technology west; if it hadn't been for that it's almost certain western europe would never have advanced as rapidly as it did, regardless of the philosophical DNA of greeks and romans.
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:19 PM   #574
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Please correct me if I am misinterpreting - are you suggesting that America would be "better" if it was less white? If so, please inform us what is inherently wrong about being white (given, as suggested, America would be better if we had less of it)
You're not even misinterpreting. You're inventing something totally outside of what I said.
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:03 PM   #575
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the only reason we still are even aware of the philosophical DNA of those cultures is because the "darker-people-world" (*cringe*) quite literally kept classical science and philosophy alive and invented advanced mathematics after rome collapsed.
Well, please don't forget the Byzantine Empire...it survived until the 1400's - and when it fell the intellectuals fled west and helped initiate the Renaissance.
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:10 PM   #576
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Well, please don't forget the Byzantine Empire...it survived until the 1400's - and when it fell the intellectuals fled west and helped initiate the Renaissance.
**please don't forget the white people!!!**

you can't help yourself.

this is historically not true.
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:14 PM   #577
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True, but the monks did their share as well.
Aeon , let's talk about habits of the mind. These are begun in childhood and are hard to break or change. Did you grow up in a rigid or fundamentalist system?
I grew up in Boy's Homes, eventually landing in one ran by Jesuits - they encouraged thought and debate. We were taught to find holes on logic (and logic, by it's nature, can be very "black and white"). Of course, the subjective experience is certainly valid, but it's much more difficult yo build systems of thinking around what "feels" right.

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I notice your reverting to black/white thinking is a fairly ingrained habit of the mind for you. I'm not trying to judge you for this, just pointing out that that seems to be a groove you seem to fall back into quite easily. I think breaking the pattern of tribalism, which comes quite naturally to all humans myself included, is a good habit of the mind to practice.
I don't know if I agree with this. I'm still pondering and reading about this. The strange thing is - even if I don't want to be limited to the white tribe, the other tribes will certainly place me there by default.

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I agree that Western Civilization has brought the world a good share of it's great ideas. Greece=Democracy, for example. The Judeo-Christian tradition of course originated in the Middle East. So there's really no one or the other, although S. Bannon would surely try to convince us otherwise.
Yes, there is certainly some blending of ideas. There's no doubt that cultures have overlap....like Venn Diagrams...I don't deny this.
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Old 09-10-2017, 08:52 PM   #578
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AEON - just out of curiosity, do you know how long your family has been in the USA? Are they recent European immigrants? Or Mayflower types?
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:05 PM   #579
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You have an interesting background, Aeon. I think the Jesuits are generally good thinkers and encourage one to questions one's assumptions. In that sense, I think they encourage a healthy intellectual stance. I'm guessing they formed in you a habit of intellectual curiosity and openness to questioning ? I can certainly see that trait in the current Pope, a Jesuit.
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:10 PM   #580
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Dave C, you may look at copying and translating as primitive skills, but until Gutenberg arrived on the scene, they were essentially to preserving knowledge.
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