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Old 09-09-2017, 08:04 PM   #541
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Again with pointing to Hillary Clinton as if she's the arbiter of truth for anyone on the left.

Pro-tip: she's not.
To say nothing of the fact that if a politician with the kind of experience of Clinton or Obama or other people of that sort comes up with a proposal to secure our borders or deal with illegal immigration, they're actually taking the time to plan this stuff out and focus on the necessary details. They'd take into account funding concerns and would talk to various leaders both in the border states and in Mexico to sort out any potential issues, and so on. Whatever one's personal feelings on the immigration and border issues themselves, at least we could be reasonably assured that there's some actual thought of some kind going into those politicians' plans.

Trump? Not so much. He seems to think that he can just decree something on Twitter and it's suddenly law, and doesn't seem to really understand or care how the legislative process works. He also keeps trying to insist that Mexico will pay for the border wall despite the fact that that's not even remotely likely to happen. His policy thus far seems to be based off of nothing more than, "Obama liked/supported it? Then it's gone." That's it. Not exactly grounds for trusting him with such important issues like immigration or border control (let alone anything else).
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Old 09-09-2017, 08:30 PM   #542
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To say nothing of the fact that if a politician with the kind of experience of Clinton or Obama or other people of that sort comes up with a proposal to secure our borders or deal with illegal immigration, they're actually taking the time to plan this stuff out and focus on the necessary details. They'd take into account funding concerns and would talk to various leaders both in the border states and in Mexico to sort out any potential issues, and so on. Whatever one's personal feelings on the immigration and border issues themselves, at least we could be reasonably assured that there's some actual thought of some kind going into those politicians' plans.

Trump? Not so much. He seems to think that he can just decree something on Twitter and it's suddenly law, and doesn't seem to really understand or care how the legislative process works.
Moonlit, I'm confused if you want legislation, or more executive orders.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:00 PM   #543
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I just want people who are actually prepared for and understand the complexities of the job they're doing, that's the main point I'm making. Whether they go through the legislative means or go with an executive order, I want to know they've actually put some thought into either option when they're trying to pass something or change laws or whatnot. My argument is that I don't get the feeling Trump ever puts any sort of actual thought into any of the stuff he tries to do, which is a large part of the reason why we're especially critical of him, even if and when other politicians propose similar plans.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:43 PM   #544
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Again with pointing to Hillary Clinton as if she's the arbiter of truth for anyone on the left.

Pro-tip: she's not.
True. But she was the Democratic Presidential candidate and her views on illegal immigration are essentially the same as President Trump (building a physical barrier, returning the children of illegal immigrants to their homes). Yet, many on the Left (including our dear Bono) didn't really single her out for this...
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:53 PM   #545
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True. But she was the Democratic Presidential candidate and her views on illegal immigration are essentially the same as President Trump (building a physical barrier, returning the children of illegal immigrants to their homes). Yet, many on the Left (including our dear Bono) didn't really single her out for this...


Because maybe their comprehension skills allowed them to realize they are not essentially the same.

Why are you so desperately trying to sell this lie?
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:55 PM   #546
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Because maybe their comprehension skills allowed them to realize they are not essentially the same.

Why are you so desperately trying to sell this lie?
Okay, then - please help me comprehend where they differ?
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:03 PM   #547
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Okay, then - please help me comprehend where they differ?


She wasn't talking about daca in that clip. She wasn't calling for idiotic chants for a wall. She had a comprehensive plan. She wasn't blaming rape, murder, and loss of jobs on Mexicans.

Let's just start there, shall we?
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:43 PM   #548
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I'm quite sure that Hillary wouldn't have deported the Dreamers. I understood her emphasis to be helping those who are here find a path to citizenship and then creating future plans for sustainable levels of immigration.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:04 PM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
True. But she was the Democratic Presidential candidate and her views on illegal immigration are essentially the same as President Trump (building a physical barrier, returning the children of illegal immigrants to their homes). Yet, many on the Left (including our dear Bono) didn't really single her out for this...
If you can't see the difference between Clinton's position and Trump's, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't find that to be an intellectually honest position to take.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:00 AM   #550
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If you can't see the difference between Clinton's position and Trump's, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't find that to be an intellectually honest position to take.
The only real difference is the rhetoric - the "action items" are strikingly similar.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:01 AM   #551
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She wasn't calling for idiotic chants for a wall. She had a comprehensive plan. She wasn't blaming rape, murder, and loss of jobs on Mexicans.

Let's just start there, shall we?
All example of rhetoric, not action.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:08 AM   #552
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Rhetoric is not meaningless or free of consequences.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:08 AM   #553
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I'm quite sure that Hillary wouldn't have deported the Dreamers. I understood her emphasis to be helping those who are here find a path to citizenship and then creating future plans for sustainable levels of immigration.
You're right, she would not have allowed such a thing a DACA exist in the first place. However, let's assume she inherited it as President Trump did - her staff would have done some polling and they would have concluded that it would be "unpopular" to end DACA (despite the law) -
and then she would have supported it (changing her 2014 position).

She is always with the prevailing wind (or thinks she is)...
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:09 AM   #554
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I just don't get this. Let's say for the sake of argument that Hillary supported the exact same policies as trumpy. So what? How does this make your argument? 'Oh hey look, I found someone on 'your side' that agrees with me'. This 'my side'/'your side' bullshit is all that's wrong in today's US politics.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:09 AM   #555
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Rhetoric is not meaningless or free of consequences.
Agreed, but we should be able to see through it...
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:11 AM   #556
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I just don't get this. Let's say for the sake of argument that Hillary supported the exact same policies as trumpy. So what? How does this make your argument? 'Oh hey look, I found someone on 'your side' that agrees with me'. This 'my side'/'your side' bullshit is all that's wrong in today's US politics.
I'm pointing this out because the outrage against President Trump is unwarranted on an intellectual basis.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:20 AM   #557
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All example of rhetoric, not action.


If you're this desperate to hold on to your world view then have at it.

But take note that several of us tried to actually engage with you, and you refused. So don't ever come in here play victim and accuse people of trying to silence you.
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Old 09-10-2017, 12:36 AM   #558
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If you're this desperate to hold on to your world view then have at it.
So...those are not examples of rhetoric?

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But take note that several of us tried to actually engage with you, and you refused.
Dude, you've been calling me a blatant liar and telling me to f*ck off, yet I still answered your questions and engaged with you...

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So don't ever come in here play victim and accuse people of trying to silence you.
Amitram and I came to a place where we respectfully "agreed to disagree" on the Free Speech topic. Vincent Vega offered an amazing post on Europe's view of Free Speech and the Refugee issues...No, I don't feel silenced - I feel challenged, and that's a good thing.
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Old 09-10-2017, 01:00 AM   #559
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If you're this desperate to hold on to your world view then have at it..
I have many opinions, but very few convictions. My opinions can certainly change with new data or a properly constructed argument.

If you are trying to persuade me with: "it's complicated" or "it's nuanced" -without actually demonstrating the complications or the nuances...it's unlikely to succeed.
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Old 09-10-2017, 01:08 AM   #560
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I have many opinions, but very few convictions. My opinions can certainly change with new data or a properly constructed argument.



If you are trying to persuade me with: "it's complicated" or "it's nuanced" -without actually demonstrating the complications or the nuances...it's unlikely to succeed.


Ok, then let's start with jobs?

Did they steal them?

Are they gone?

Are they working harder and earning less?

Let's have an honest discussion about the rust belt.
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