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Old 09-08-2017, 10:49 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
You seem very certain of this.

Demographics are destiny.

Make sure you work super hard on voter ID laws. Even those can only stem the tide for so long.
Not sure what you mean here...stem the tide.
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:13 PM   #522
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Yeah, he did okay. However - those huge infrastructure projects didn't really materialize.




So what entitlements was this country offering illegal immigrants that we weren't offering the rust belt?
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:56 PM   #523
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So what entitlements was this country offering illegal immigrants that we weren't offering the rust belt?
When you have a regular job (verified income) - you must pay taxes and pay for everything in life (school, healthcare, dental, housing, food...etc). Fair enough.

When you work for cash underneath the table (unverified income), you don't pay income tax and through various state, federal, and local programs you can receive free or heavily subsidized food, medical, education, and housing. (and also enjoy all of the government services paid for by taxpayers: fire, police, roads...bridges - without paying for any of it)

So, illegal immigrants reduce the wages of the US workers (by working for less per hour, working off the books, and increasing the supply of labor), and increases the tax burden of the US workers (someone has to cover the costs of these entitlements) - which further shrinks the US workers' net income.

I imagine such people (especially in the Rust Belt) would not be too happy about illegal immigration. And guess what - they're not! Hence...Trump wins.
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Old 09-08-2017, 03:21 PM   #524
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I think that the economic woes of the Rust Belt are undoubtedly there. But I also think that it is simplistic and naive to think that en masse these voters chose Trump because they believed he would introduce economic policies that would help them. Among them there are plenty of people who voted for other reasons (and yes, racism being one).

The other thing that I find interesting is that the right preaches constantly about self-reliance, pulling yourself up by the boot straps and working hard. Not waiting for government handouts like those welfare queens in Harlem. And YET, many of these Rust Belters are doing absolutely NOTHING to improve their situation. They are not getting re-trained, they are not leaving their dying towns to go where there is (more modern) work, they are not willing to accept that automation is here to stay. The unemployment rate is near all time lows and they are sitting there woefully unemployed. One could say they were lazier and less inspired than the immigrants walking hundreds of miles through the desert to make better lives for themselves. But no, not these snowflakes. They want their president to come and give them their jobs back. What are we to take from this? Is it not fair to consider whether they lack ambition? Self-reliance? Hard work? So we must all have extra special care and understanding for their economic situation but heaven forbid we discuss the multi-faceted reasons why a single mother in Harlem might need government assistance now and then. Oh no, she's just lazy and spread her legs too many times. To me, there is something absolutely racist beneath the surface here.
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Old 09-08-2017, 03:46 PM   #525
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When you have a regular job (verified income) - you must pay taxes and pay for everything in life (school, healthcare, dental, housing, food...etc). Fair enough.

When you work for cash underneath the table (unverified income), you don't pay income tax and through various state, federal, and local programs you can receive free or heavily subsidized food, medical, education, and housing. (and also enjoy all of the government services paid for by taxpayers: fire, police, roads...bridges - without paying for any of it)

So, illegal immigrants reduce the wages of the US workers (by working for less per hour, working off the books, and increasing the supply of labor), and increases the tax burden of the US workers (someone has to cover the costs of these entitlements) - which further shrinks the US workers' net income.

I imagine such people (especially in the Rust Belt) would not be too happy about illegal immigration. And guess what - they're not! Hence...Trump wins.


So, not different dignity or entitlements? The same dignity and entitlements, and that's what they're angry about, how dare these people get treated the same?

I know, I know, they're not paying into the system. Well guess what? Neither does The Con. And how much would they be paying into the system with a job you wouldn't even take?
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Old 09-08-2017, 04:09 PM   #526
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To me, there is something absolutely racist beneath the surface here.

You'll note that when conservatives complain about people on welfare who also happen to have a nice cell phone or TV (or fridge), they're not talking about white rust belt citizens.
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Old 09-08-2017, 04:19 PM   #527
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You'll note that when conservatives complain about people on welfare who also happen to have a nice cell phone or TV (or fridge), they're not talking about white rust belt citizens.
Yes!

And wasn't one of the main complaints regarding the Syrian (and other) refugees that they all had cell phones?
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:12 PM   #528
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So, not different dignity or entitlements? The same dignity and entitlements, and that's what they're angry about, how dare these people get treated the same?

I know, I know, they're not paying into the system. Well guess what? Neither does The Con. And how much would they be paying into the system with a job you wouldn't even take?
Would you expect to be able to relocate to any country on earth and demand these things?

And I'm asking you to look at from the blue-collar worker POV - things were decent (maybe not great) before the wave illegal immigration hit their states. Now, they're working harder and affording less because someone left the gate open several thousand miles south. How can you not empathize with this?

It seems a bit arrogant to suggest that US citizens just accept this reaming. Their government was expected to enforce the law and protect the border - that's part of the contract. It's not racist - it's just good order. If the mainstream Democrats or Republicans won't stop illegal immigration, they will elect someone who will.

American citizenship is not a human right.
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:16 PM   #529
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You'll note that when conservatives complain about people on welfare who also happen to have a nice cell phone or TV (or fridge), they're not talking about white rust belt citizens.
Well, I'm speaking about the blue-collar workers of the Rust Belt and why they turned from the Democratic party and helped elect Trump.

Also - you can't be on welfare if you are simply paid less and less for the same job. You have to be jobless (or have a job off the record books).
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:21 PM   #530
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The other thing that I find interesting is that the right preaches constantly about self-reliance, pulling yourself up by the boot straps and working hard. Not waiting for government handouts like those welfare queens in Harlem. And YET, many of these Rust Belters are doing absolutely NOTHING to improve their situation. They are not getting re-trained, they are not leaving their dying towns to go where there is (more modern) work, they are not willing to accept that automation is here to stay.
I agree. That is also at play - and there are still tons of un-filled technical jobs out there (repairmen, electricians, system administrators, operators) in other states They do need to start making things happen on their own. I do see that. However, they certainly should not be expected to take on the extra burden of illegal immigrants.
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:31 PM   #531
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Would you expect to be able to relocate to any country on earth and demand these things?
Not the point nor the issue.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post

And I'm asking you to look at from the blue-collar worker POV - things were decent (maybe not great) before the wave illegal immigration hit their states. Now, they're working harder and affording less because someone left the gate open several thousand miles south. How can you not empathize with this?
Did you forget I live in Texas?



They are working the same. If they are affording less it has less to do with immigrants and more to do with change, a change they didn't adapt to.

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It seems a bit arrogant to suggest that US citizens just accept this reaming. Their government was expected to enforce the law and protect the border - that's part of the contract. It's not racist - it's just good order. If the mainstream Democrats or Republicans won't stop illegal immigration, they will elect someone who will.
I'm not suggesting not enforcing, where did you once get that from any of our conversations. I'm just saying your claims are highly exaggerated and extremely misguided.

And come on, stop it with the strawman arguments, no one is saying borders or border control is racist. It's desperate and small.
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:52 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I think that the economic woes of the Rust Belt are undoubtedly there. But I also think that it is simplistic and naive to think that en masse these voters chose Trump because they believed he would introduce economic policies that would help them. Among them there are plenty of people who voted for other reasons (and yes, racism being one).

The other thing that I find interesting is that the right preaches constantly about self-reliance, pulling yourself up by the boot straps and working hard. Not waiting for government handouts like those welfare queens in Harlem. And YET, many of these Rust Belters are doing absolutely NOTHING to improve their situation. They are not getting re-trained, they are not leaving their dying towns to go where there is (more modern) work, they are not willing to accept that automation is here to stay. The unemployment rate is near all time lows and they are sitting there woefully unemployed. One could say they were lazier and less inspired than the immigrants walking hundreds of miles through the desert to make better lives for themselves. But no, not these snowflakes. They want their president to come and give them their jobs back. What are we to take from this? Is it not fair to consider whether they lack ambition? Self-reliance? Hard work? So we must all have extra special care and understanding for their economic situation but heaven forbid we discuss the multi-faceted reasons why a single mother in Harlem might need government assistance now and then. Oh no, she's just lazy and spread her legs too many times. To me, there is something absolutely racist beneath the surface here.
Beat me to it-I was just going to say all of this myself.

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And I'm asking you to look at from the blue-collar worker POV - things were decent (maybe not great) before the wave illegal immigration hit their states. Now, they're working harder and affording less because someone left the gate open several thousand miles south. How can you not empathize with this?
Because they're directing their anger at the wrong people. They're blaming the immigrants for the shitty practices of businesses and corporations. Instead of attacking and demonizing people who are coming here and trying to make better lives for themselves, get mad at the companies who are screwing EVERYONE over, both illegal immigrants and their longtime workers. Demand accountability from them, and demand that politicians hold them accountable, too. Don't punish the immigrants.

And like anitram said, why don't those people who lost their jobs, or those people who are working hard and affording less, just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, then, like they expect everyone else to do? They seem to think it's such an easy thing to do, so let them do it, then.

To say nothing of the hypocrisy of the anti-illegal immigrant argument. If illegal immigrants are working, they're taking jobs away from Americans. If they're not working, they're lazy moochers. They can't seem to win no matter what they do.

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It seems a bit arrogant to suggest that US citizens just accept this reaming. Their government was expected to enforce the law and protect the border - that's part of the contract. It's not racist - it's just good order. If the mainstream Democrats or Republicans won't stop illegal immigration, they will elect someone who will.
And yet here's the thing you and anyone else who supports tighter border control or a wall or mass deportation of immigrants doesn't understand: We can put as many barriers up between us and Mexico as we want, and get rid of every single illegal immigrant that's living here. That's still not going to solve our economic woes. It's still not going to address the issue of companies and corporations taking advantage of workers, it's still not going to stop corporations shipping jobs overseas, and it's still not going to address the fact that some jobs are becoming more and more irrelevant, regardless of who's working there, simply because of technological progress and automation. Getting rid of immigrants and tightening our borders as a means to deal with our economic problems is nothing more than a band aid solution for a huge wound.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:21 AM   #533
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no one is saying borders or border control is racist. It's desperate and small.
Are you sure about that?

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To me, there is something absolutely racist beneath the surface here.
And there are plenty of articles and editorials out there claiming border control is racist.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:17 AM   #534
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Are you sure about that?



And there are plenty of articles and editorials out there claiming border control is racist.


Once again, you completely misunderstood an antriam post.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:43 PM   #535
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Hillary Clinton agrees with President Trump that the children of illegal immigrants should be sent back...

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Old 09-09-2017, 05:51 PM   #536
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You really lack any comprehension skills .... when it suits you.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:51 PM   #537
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I don't get your love of random youtube videos. Plenty of people have said things that I don't agree with, why does it matter?

So, a Democrat said something you think is great, so what? Why is that important? Would you feel better if I find a video of a random republican statement that I agree with?
This is so bizarre.
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:53 PM   #538
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Again with pointing to Hillary Clinton as if she's the arbiter of truth for anyone on the left.

Pro-tip: she's not.
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:54 PM   #539
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You really lack any comprehension skills .... when it suits you.
Disagreements or disagreeable policy positions do not equal a lack of comprehension.
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:56 PM   #540
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Disagreements or disagreeable policy positions do not equal a lack of comprehension.


No it does not, you are correct in your statement.

But that is not what is happening here. Don't pretend otherwise. AEON is constantly painting comments as saying something they are not.

You are being just as dishonest as he is, or having the same comprehension issues as he is if you can't see that.

Antriam did not say what he thought she said, and Clinton wasn't talking about DECA in that video.
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