US Politics III

[BVS]

It looks as if The Con got his Twitter privileges back today.

The wall is being built, ok technically some existing areas are being repaired.

And DECA is, well he doesn't exactly seem to know what DECA is...

 

[anitram]

This DACA thing just shows once again, perhaps definitively, that even a man as lost in Washington and as stupid and incurious as Donald Trump is able to see that the Republican Party is not fit to govern or lead on any matter whatsoever. They are an obstructionist do-nothing party bereft of ideas short of stripping people of their medicare and getting tax breaks for the wealthy.

So his elephantine ego has to get his wins somewhere, even if it's the Democrats.

Totally damning for the GOP.

 

[AEON]

Have you, perchance, seen the commentary coming from Bannon, Breitbart and the like on this?

No, not yet. I can probably guess what it is - but I will check it out.

 

[AEON]

This DACA thing just shows once again, perhaps definitively, that even a man as lost in Washington and as stupid and incurious as Donald Trump is able to see that the Republican Party is not fit to govern or lead on any matter whatsoever. They are an obstructionist do-nothing party bereft of ideas short of stripping people of their medicare and getting tax breaks for the wealthy.

So his elephantine ego has to get his wins somewhere, even if it's the Democrats.

Totally damning for the GOP.

In a way - this can work out for the good of the country. What I mean is the perhaps through Donald Trump, ironically, both political parties move more to the center and start actually accomplishing things.

Not likely, but there is a chance

 

[trojanchick99]

[TWEET]908308484801757184[/TWEET]

This is me today reading twitter.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

First images of Trump's wall being built

 

[BEAL]

So are both sides not seeing what he's doing? He's trying to get Dem support for his tax breaks so he can finally get a win.

I really hope the Dems aren't so stupid to think he'll back the DACA stuff. All he wants is what is good for him.

 

[Popmartijn]

In a way - this can work out for the good of the country. What I mean is the perhaps through Donald Trump, ironically, both political parties move more to the center and start actually accomplishing things.

Not likely, but there is a chance

What is 'the center'? Looking at it from an international perspective, one party is center-right and the other is hard right. Should they meet in their current middle, then it's still not the center.

 

[anitram]

The "center" is also very deceiving because while the Republicans are very good at getting the hard/far right to vote on their behalf (note how the vast majority of evangelicals eagerly support a philandering, thrice-married immoral, areligious liar), the far left has not been politically involved or engaged in the same way. So when we talk of the center, it's usually people simply ignoring that wing, which ultimately can only result in the center actually falling somewhere on the right end of the spectrum.

 

[trojanchick99]

One of the issues is the GOP and right wing press label anything that isn't hard right as socialist. They say it enough and people start to believe the Democratic Party is socialist which it isn't.

 

[Irvine511]

The "center" is also very deceiving because while the Republicans are very good at getting the hard/far right to vote on their behalf (note how the vast majority of evangelicals eagerly support a philandering, thrice-married immoral, areligious liar), the far left has not been politically involved or engaged in the same way. So when we talk of the center, it's usually people simply ignoring that wing, which ultimately can only result in the center actually falling somewhere on the right end of the spectrum.

The problem, though, is that the far left doesn't vote. Especially not in midterms. They can complain about being uninspired or alienated or whatever, but they don't show up. The existential threat of Trump didn't get them to show up. Their right wing equivalents have no problems rallying behind similarly uninspiring candidates, and until they come to understand politics as is, then they will continue to be ignored.

 

[anitram]

The problem, though, is that the far left doesn't vote. Especially not in midterms. They can complain about being uninspired or alienated or whatever, but they don't show up. The existential threat of Trump didn't get them to show up. Their right wing equivalents have no problems rallying behind similarly uninspiring candidates, and until they come to understand politics as is, then they will continue to be ignored.

That's exactly it. Like I said, the Democrats have never managed to mobilize this contingent in the same way that the GOP has managed to mobilize the Tea Party types or the Trumpsters.

But part of it is that the Democrats themselves have not been willing to go much further left in their platforms. So it isn't just a matter of these voters not showing up. Contrast that with the Republicans who have no issue pandering to the absolute worst elements of our society. Whatever gets them elected.

 

[Irvine511]

That's exactly it. Like I said, the Democrats have never managed to mobilize this contingent in the same way that the GOP has managed to mobilize the Tea Party types or the Trumpsters.



But part of it is that the Democrats themselves have not been willing to go much further left in their platforms. So it isn't just a matter of these voters not showing up. Contrast that with the Republicans who have no issue pandering to the absolute worst elements of our society. Whatever gets them elected.

Seems chicken and egg -- do Republicans embrace the worst among us because they vote, or do Republicans get them to vote because they offer awful legislation that harms people?

I think this Medicare for all movement in the Senate will be an interesting test. It's what the Left wants most, single payer. Will they show up? Or is it more fun to complain and whine and be cynical?

Granted, elections on a Tuesday are difficult when you work 3 jobs and aren't retired.

 

[DaveC]

I think this Medicare for all movement in the Senate will be an interesting test. It's what the Left wants most, single payer. Will they show up? Or is it more fun to complain and whine and be cynical?

hopefully it generates some real national discussion about the idea at the very least.

 

[Irvine511]

hopefully it generates some real national discussion about the idea at the very least.

I think it will be reality within 10 years.

 

[anitram]

I think it will be reality within 10 years.

Did you read the article on Politico a couple of days ago where they discussed private DNC polls which were troubling in the sense that there was poor public support for this? But when you get deeper into the weeds it seems that most people are against it because they think that it's a pie-in-the-sky proposition. Of course there is also significant opposition from those who think it's one step closer to communism.

 

[Irvine511]

Did you read the article on Politico a couple of days ago where they discussed private DNC polls which were troubling in the sense that there was poor public support for this? But when you get deeper into the weeds it seems that most people are against it because they think that it's a pie-in-the-sky proposition. Of course there is also significant opposition from those who think it's one step closer to communism.

I didn't read it, but doesn't surprise me.

I think Obamacare was a needed first step. It broke the fever.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Seems chicken and egg -- do Republicans embrace the worst among us because they vote, or do Republicans get them to vote because they offer awful legislation that harms people?

I think this Medicare for all movement in the Senate will be an interesting test. It's what the Left wants most, single payer. Will they show up? Or is it more fun to complain and whine and be cynical?

Granted, elections on a Tuesday are difficult when you work 3 jobs and aren't retired.

I think it's honest a split decision.

There are some who were Republicans who decided to go along with the party, and three wren others, like myself, who grew up and realized that there was something wrong.

I believe that the side who just went along is larger, mostly because I believe most people are stupid and the left doesn't try to talk to the stupid.

That sounds ridiculous, but I so believe that's why Trump won. ENOUGH stupid people voted for him.

The problem with stupid people is of course that they don't like being called Stupid people. That's why being called deplorable and "white privilege" doesn't work. Not because it isn't true, bit because it doesn't help win over stupid people.

Yes. Stupid people.

Come at me, aeon. I'm conservative n most things economically. Which once upon a Time was all that mattered.

Now being a conservative means defending neo Nazis? Go fuck yourself.

If you're truly a conservative and voted for Trump because you thought he'd be conservative, the. You're a Stupid person

 

[AEON]

I think it will be reality within 10 years.

I think you are probably right.

If we can get some great (non-partisan if possible) auditors to knock out the scammers, I think we will see medical costs dramatically reduced - which will make single payer feasible.

Also, giving local clinics more leeway to utilize technology in order to keep the small things like colds, immunizations, twisted ankles...etc., out of the main system - so to speak. There is certainly some risk the system would have to accept (some misdiagnosed infection - the local clinic won't have House on staff). However, I currently work IBM Watson Health Commercial Operations - and the amount of data being thrown at that thing from all of the hospitals, universities, and clinics around the world is staggering. It's ability to diagnose is already fantastic, and is improving exponentially. If the local clinics and neighborhood doctors had access to Watson - that too, would greatly reduce overall cost.

 

[Irvine511]

I will qualify my optimism by saying that, for right now, Medicare for All/Single Payer is an empty catchphrase devoid of any workable policies. We need to be as wary of the far left offering up plans devoid of facts and loaded with magic math as we are of the idiot "tax cuts will pay for themselves" folks on the other side.

This was how I made my decisions in 2016. I'm neither a fantasist nor a fabulist. Work has to be done.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Trump and I have finally found a middle ground.

ESPN's programming does indeed suck

 

[AEON]

Trump and I have finally found a middle ground.

ESPN's programming does indeed suck

It's been a long slide downhill since the mid-90s...same with music

 

[BEAL]

I will qualify my optimism by saying that, for right now, Medicare for All/Single Payer is an empty catchphrase devoid of any workable policies. We need to be as wary of the far left offering up plans devoid of facts and loaded with magic math as we are of the idiot "tax cuts will pay for themselves" folks on the other side.

This was how I made my decisions in 2016. I'm neither a fantasist nor a fabulist. Work has to be done.

Careful or you'll be labeled establishment and wanting Wall Street to win.

Literally every thing I've read on this bill suggests the numbers don't add up without some additional work (i.e income taxes will need to go up a lot). This was with sales taxes, corporate taxes, and apparent savings that would come from less medical costs. None of those are lies but it still isn't enough to pay for this.

I do like the idea of phasing it in, as that is smart and would help with planning.

But it goes back to the root of the problem with Bernie and these socialist policies. There just isn't enough detail, and when the details do come out, it loses public support (polls showed that liberals jumped ship on this bill when higher income taxes were shown, ditto for government run healthcare slander)

If there is blame to go on, it is the more conservative democrats who refused to vote for Obamacare with the public option. I do think that's the next logical step in healthcare.

I appreciate Bernie bringing some of these issues to more mainstream audiences. I do wish he would go away though as he's just thrown up another proposal that won't work and now can go back to playing the I told you so victim. As well as his fan base, who will go after other Dems instead of the opposing party

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

you have to consider the costs most of us are paying for health care now in that tax equation. Taxes increasing would be necessary, but the break point for reasonable people is when does it start to take expendable income out of your pocket?

If a single pay healthcare system ups my annual taxes by $3,500 but my annual outlay for healthcare that would be covered by the new system is $5,400, there is a net benefit. The anti-tax types will point to a huge tax raise..."unprecedented increase, taking YOUR money from you!!!" But if they take MY money and provide me a service cheaper than what I am paying on the open market for healthcare, and the national single pay aspect creates no-fee (not no-cost...no-fee) preventative maintenance for those below the poverty line who make up the largest population of those who go with no or catastrophic only insurance that costs us in indigent coverage after major illness that was preventable/could be mitigated by regular care? Now,I am seeing savings and the cost of operation could see realistic decreases as the general public becomes healthier?


That's what matters. And if the tax rate remains graduated, and this is paid from an increase of income tax, not sales taxes or usage taxes, then the cost is carried by those who are likely paying out the nose for healthcare anyway, and would be happy with a net decrease.

And, quite frankly, the argument of freedom to choose care/providers is largely a joke with limited numbers of doctors taking new patients/HMO/PPO based plans requiring referrals, etc. Or, even worse, you are charged monthly by your employer for an HRA account that they spill less than $100 a month into that is 80/20 up to $6000 after the HRA funds are exhausted (which occurs at $1200 for my major bank employer), so I pay $240 a month for the right to pay 80% of my bill after $1200 and up to $6000. So my medical costs depend on the calendar...when my kid blew her ACL in November, I paid to the deductible for that calendar year, then her rehab was a new calendar year and I got to run up to my deductible again. Then I am still paying 20% after $6000, so...yeah.

I could bear an increase in my annual taxes of $4000 a year and still come out ahead if it meant I no longer had to pay premiums or out of pocket.

 

[DaveC]

Or, even worse, you are charged monthly by your employer for an HRA account that they spill less than $100 a month into that is 80/20 up to $6000 after the HRA funds are exhausted (which occurs at $1200 for my major bank employer), so I pay $240 a month for the right to pay 80% of my bill after $1200 and up to $6000. So my medical costs depend on the calendar...when my kid blew her ACL in November, I paid to the deductible for that calendar year, then her rehab was a new calendar year and I got to run up to my deductible again. Then I am still paying 20% after $6000, so...yeah.

good lord.

70 bucks a month gets deducted off my pay and in return my healthcare costs for *everything* are zero. including prescriptions.

edit: there are things that aren't covered of course, i couldn't go get a nose job and have the government pay for it. but essentially anything non-elective is $0 cost to me.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Greece was not a unified nation as we know it, it consisted of various city-states. Therefore, Ancient Greek was a series of dialects. It didn't start to unify until the time of Alexander the Great and then the Roman Empire. This Greek was comprised of the two major dialects, Attic and Ionic.

People who know modern Greek can understand some Ancient dialects but it's analogous to modern English to old English.

Oh, duh, right, tjc! I often forget that fact (city-states). And the only ones that I know of were Athens, and Sparta.
Intersting, too, analogy of old English to modern.
Thanks!

 

[dazzledbylight]

Vincent Vega, Baby Doll thank you also for your posts and article links! Not quite through the articles yet but read a major portion of them.
Dave C didn't getbto your longer posts yet, but i will.

 

[dazzledbylight]

One of the issues is the GOP and right wing press label anything that isn't hard right as socialist. They say it enough and people start to believe the Democratic Party is socialist which it isn't.

THIS.
And it's been going on this way since FDR's New Deal (then LBJ's Great Society)!

The problem, though, is that the far left doesn't vote. Especially not in midterms. They can complain about being uninspired or alienated or whatever, but they don't show up. The existential threat of Trump didn't get them to show up. Their right wing equivalents have no problems rallying behind similarly uninspiring candidates, and until they come to understand politics as is, then they will continue to be ignored.

I wish we could break down our political labels into at least one or two more category here in the USA on the leftward side.
Say Center, Center Left, Middle Left, Left, and Far Left?

I'm thinking in terms or questions of , well, here we have neo-liberals, liberals (FDR types), Democratic Socialists and then we have people handing out "The Socialist Workers Party" paper [and maybe a few other socialist groups?] and Communists. Anarchists I guess are sort of in their own category.

So does a group like the SWP even think that DSA are a "legit" socialist party? And are these two in anyway analogous to any parties in Europe (and Australia, New Zealand)?

As far as my understanding, experience of neo-liberals is they do tend to be more left on social issues than on economics.
Some people put social issues on a lower level than economies. I don't.

So in my thinking say this Middle Left category might equate to FDR liberals. Left would be DSA. Far Left would be SWP, Communists.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

i couldn't go get a nose job and have the government pay for it. .

What's that all aboot?

 

[trojanchick99]

I'm sure the Orange Orangutan in Chief will have a measured and thoughtful response to the protests in St Louis.