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Old 09-05-2017, 11:06 PM   #441
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That was a great response. Thank you. My only real reply to your list is that I personally try to treat everybody I meet with dignity and respect.

Additionally, if I am to accept the problems of white culture - I should also be free to express the benefits of it without being considered a neo-Nazi. White men should not be raised to feel a sense of shame simply for being white men - because that is what will lead to the very reactionary response we truly don't want.
What benefits?

And no one is being raised to feel shame, I have no fucking idea where you get that from.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:13 PM   #442
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Just curious; do you really believe that the average Trump supporter is willing to pay the increase in lettuce, coffee, labor, hotels, going out to dinner, or their own housing?
What about you, BVS? How much do you enjoy the benefits of cheap labor? I personally hope that I wouldn't buy cheap cotton from the South in 1857...

As for 2017, I would certainly pay more for lettuce (which I rarely eat) and a made-bed in order not to take advantage of illegal immigrants and their willingness to work ungody hours for pennies on the dollar....but that's me...

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You keep pretending that this is some dream of the elite but forget that the cost of everything in your rust belt dream will increase, that Trump's ties will cost you twice as much, and Walmart will be considered Macy's.
I rarely shop at those stores and I would think that our awesome, creative population would find a way to provide the goods and services people want at the price they are willing to pay...otherwise those goods are not true goods and those services are not true services....

Community gardens help reduce the cost of vegetables because of cutting out transportation and storage costs - that's one example. Think outside the box...that's what we do...


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You really think it's just landscaping and construction?
No, it's worse. Thank for pointing that out.


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So the average American dry waller gets to keep his job, but everything arounds them goes up in costs and his wages will not change, what does he do? None of you have thought this through on an economic or moral lens.
Not true, the dry-waller gets paid at market rate (the good ones get paid more), and hopefully, will have some spare income to buy the goods and services that others create (as opposed to being unemployed, uninsured, depressed with zero disposable income).
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:16 PM   #443
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What benefits?
Are you suggesting there are none? Or are you trying to trap me into what I specifically warned against?

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And no one is being raised to feel shame, I have no fucking idea where you get that from.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:23 PM   #444
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Are you suggesting there are none? Or are you trying to trap me into what I specifically warned against?
There are many benefits, specifically the ones I mentioned in my earlier post. I'd like to know what you'd think they are.



Why are you threatened or upset by this? I watch this as a white person and go "yeah, good points". You are choosing to view this in an inflammatory way. If more white people heeded the messages in this video, there'd be no need for BLM, protests and so on.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:34 PM   #445
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What about you, BVS? How much do you enjoy the benefits of cheap labor? I personally hope that I wouldn't buy cheap cotton from the South in 1857...



As for 2017, I would certainly pay more for lettuce (which I rarely eat) and a made-bed in order not to take advantage of illegal immigrants and their willingness to work ungody hours for pennies on the dollar....but that's me...



I rarely shop at those stores and I would think that our awesome, creative population would find a way to provide the goods and services people want at the price they are willing to pay...otherwise those goods are not true goods and those services are not true services....



Community gardens help reduce the cost of vegetables because of cutting out transportation and storage costs - that's one example. Think outside the box...that's what we do...





No, it's worse. Thank for pointing that out.





Not true, the dry-waller gets paid at market rate (the good ones get paid more), and hopefully, will have some spare income to buy the goods and services that others create (as opposed to being unemployed, uninsured, depressed with zero disposable income).


Well I'm glad that you have this disposition, but the majority of the country does not. They will eat a Taco Bell taco over a Chipotle one, and they will call the other 'elite' for doing the right thing.

And I admire your faith in community culture, but community culture doesn't build smart phones.

We will never be an American only economy, globalism is here to stay. I'm sorry, but none of you are willing to take a step back technology wise, or are you?

And no, economics 101, when the dry waller starts getting paid higher wages then you and everyone else pays more for housing and rent.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:34 PM   #446
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There are many benefits, specifically the ones I mentioned in my earlier post. I'd like to know what you'd think they are.
I respectfully decline this kind invitation. However, I do think that others should be able to list the great things about Western/European Civilization without being considered a white supremacist.

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Why are you threatened or upset by this? I watch this as a white person and go "yeah, good points". You are choosing to view this in an inflammatory way. If more white people heeded the messages in this video, there'd be no need for BLM, protests and so on.
I'm not that upset about it. It's entirely goofy. I'm surprised you are not offended by their assertion that all men of the "white" race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race. You know, the exact definition of racism.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:41 PM   #447
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Well I'm glad that you have this disposition, but the majority of the country does not. They will eat a Taco Bell taco over a Chipotle one, and they will call the other 'elite' for doing the right thing.
I think you are giving an example of quality actually winning, right?

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And I admire your faith in community culture, but community culture doesn't build smart phones.
Chinese slaves do


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We will never be an American only economy, globalism is here to stay. I'm sorry, but none of you are willing to take a step back technology wise, or are you?
I think that screwing with wages by importing near-slave labor has probably slowed the tech revolution more than helped it. In the same way that slavery in the South slowed the progress of mechanization.

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And no, economics 101, when the dry waller starts getting paid higher wages then you and everyone else pays more for housing and rent.
Yes, but the dry-waller can now afford to buy my widget and take his grandma to my wife's quaint Tea House downtown...it's a win win
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:42 PM   #448
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I respectfully decline this kind invitation. However, I do think that others should be able to list the great things about Western/European Civilization without being considered a white supremacist.
Well that seems to me to suggest that you're worried about saying something and then having people call you out for it. That's how free speech works. Why decline? Tell me. There's nothing at stake here, we're talking on an internet forum.

I am open to having my mind changed.

There's plenty of great things about Western civilisation, for example the fact that I live in a country where I have a good job, am very safe, great access to free healthcare (one example of why America is nowhere near as good as you think it is) and a range of other things. One of the very, if not the single greatest thing about Western civilisation is multiculturalism. We have benefitted so strongly from it.

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I'm not that upset about it. It's entirely goofy. I'm surprised you are not offended by their assertion that all men of the "white" race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race. You know, the definition of racism.
Amazing false equivalence, great man. A video providing light-hearted tips on how to listen better and maybe improve interracial relations is racism? Try telling that to the black man who was beaten by white supremacists last month.
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:07 AM   #449
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Well that seems to me to suggest that you're worried about saying something and then having people call you out for it. That's how free speech works. Why decline? Tell me. There's nothing at stake here, we're talking on an internet forum.
Man, you seem like Mr. MacPhisto from ZOO TV...


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Amazing false equivalence, great man.
So, the belief that all "male" members of white race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, is not racist? (and also misandristic, but who's counting?)

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A video providing light-hearted tips on how to listen better and maybe improve interracial relations is racism?
So you would be okay with a "playful" video giving "light-hearted" tips to "Black Women" or "Middle Eastern Transgenders" on how they could improve interracial relations?

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Try telling that to the black man who was beaten by white supremacists last month.
Tell him what exactly? That he would not have been beaten if the KKK had watched this video?
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:44 AM   #450
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Nope. The fact that you are all for it says a lot about you.
What does that say about Bill and Hillary Clinton? And Ted Kennedy?
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:51 AM   #451
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Still waiting on this one. Do YOU happen to have a source?
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Please educate yourself some more without just posting things with catchy titles.
I'm happy you took the time to see that I did not make it up. That at least "things with catchy titles" exist....

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Writing for Gatestone Institute, British commentator Douglas Murray noted that this assault on "racist" speech "appears to include anything critical of the EU's current catastrophic immigration policy." He wrote:

"By deciding that 'xenophobic' comment in reaction to the crisis is also 'racist,' Facebook has made the view of the majority of the European people (who, it must be stressed, are opposed to Chancellor Merkel's policies) into 'racist' views, and so is condemning the majority of Europeans as 'racist.' This is a policy that will do its part in pushing Europe into a disastrous future.
This quote echos my concern. If you throw any dissenting opinion into the "racist" bucket, then all you need to do is label anything you oppose as "racist" to get what you want...

source:
Germany Passes "Orwellian" Anti-Free-Speech "Facebook Law" | Zero Hedge
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:35 AM   #452
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Man, you seem like Mr. MacPhisto from ZOO TV...


So, the belief that all "male" members of white race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, is not racist? (and also misandristic, but who's counting?)

So you would be okay with a "playful" video giving "light-hearted" tips to "Black Women" or "Middle Eastern Transgenders" on how they could improve interracial relations?

Tell him what exactly? That he would not have been beaten if the KKK had watched this video?
fuck, you are so deliberately obtuse.

no, I would not be okay with that video, because black women and middle-eastern trans people have been systematically oppressed, and white men have not.

you would say to that black man that him being beaten by the KKK is equal to a white man being told not to be condescending? that both are instances of racism and therefore equal?
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:48 AM   #453
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no, I would not be okay with that video, because black women and middle-eastern trans people have been systematically oppressed, and white men have not.
You cannot defeat double standards with double standards. It only deepens the divide.

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you would say to that black man that him being beaten by the KKK is equal to a white man being told not to be condescending? that both are instances of racism and therefore equal?
While the video is painful to watch, I would take that over a beating I guess. However - both the video and beating are overtly racist. And as we know from history, racist propaganda can lead to very dire consequences.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:02 AM   #454
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well, you have upsettingly bad opinions on things. I am done.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:29 AM   #455
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well, you have upsettingly bad opinions on things. I am done.
"In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat, but in the evolution of real knowledge it marks the first step in progress toward a victory. " Alfred North Whitehead
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:03 AM   #456
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Alfred probably never got a root
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:28 AM   #457
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The problem is "Hate Speech" is way too vague to ban. What if suddenly those in power decided that deriding Christians or wearing a"Fightin' Irish" was now "Hate Speech" ? You would probably accuse me of hate speech for suggesting a "barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Yes, Free Speech is dying in Europe. I'm not sure that's a good thing. To speak out, or even express concern about the immigrants from the Middle East is labeled "Hate Speech" - so these citizens now have zero control over their own country. It's all in the hands of the government, and not the people.
Europe is not a country. Europe is made up of 49 countries, 28 of which organised in the European Union. Each country has its own set of laws. It would be greatly helpful if you were precise which country/countries in Europe are going down the gutter, and where we can't speak our minds for fear of retribution. It might surprise you to learn that not all European countries have hate speech laws.

Go to Poland or Hungary and you won't need to fear prosecution, as the state leaders are firmly on your side in your "concerns".

Do you have any idea of the kind of things people said "expressing concern" that they got fined for? Those are sentences such as "We can open Auschwitz anytime", "Drown them all" (including open cheering for each refugee boat capsizing in the Mediterranean), "Gas them", sharing pictures of the Holocaust and similar (ironically, many of these people also tend to deny the Holocaust ever happened). Those are things you get fined for. Mostly, you have to pay several hundred up to a few thousand Euros. Hardly anyone goes to prison for it.

Yet, voicing concern is not stifled. For about two years people took to the streets voicing their concern each week. You probably heard about this Pegida movement. It was even adopted in England, if not other countries. Again a striking irony: Speakers saying through loudspeakers at protest marches protected by police, paid for by the taxpayers, "We can't speak our minds anymore. Free speech is being taken from us!" Members of the AFD party are on TV each week, agitating against refugees, at the same time complaining they can't speak freely, and TV is not giving them airtime (while sitting in a talkshow of a public TV station).

Germany does have hate speech laws. The crime is called "Volksverhetzung". It's very clearly defined, hasn't turned into a slippery slope, and is a result of our country's history (sorry, can't get around the reductio ad Hitlerum in this country).

Finally, the Middle Easterners that people are so concerned about are not immigrants, they are refugees. Plain and simple. Trust me, I'm working with them. In Germany and in Iraq. They are not coming for the nice summers. And certainly not for "our women". The concerns people are being fined for are, as I mentioned above, not worries about "How do we accommodate all of them?" or similar, they are a mixture of xenophobia and islamophobia, fear of social decline, opportunism by the ultra-right etc. There are many ways to express these concerns which I find greatly concerning, but which are still within their legal rights to utter.
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:52 AM   #458
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After listening to U2, how have you not understood this one simple truth: Every person on earth has a battle to fight. White men are no different. Unless...you think they actually are different. You seem to be arguing that white men are either superior for their inability to experience hardship, or inferior because their genetics require them to place undue hardship on others. Either way, your attitude seems very racist and misandristic.
Wow, calling ME a racist is rich Oh, and hilarious too You know nothing of me, about me, or you probably even do since you're a long time member and so am I, which makes your allegation towards my 'attitudes' even more ridiculous.

And no, I did not in any way mention anyone being superior or inferior. That is completely twisting my point. I am merely saying that the political and social climate in the US, especially the current political climate has traditionally been more conducive to the development of white males in particular. You do not hear of as much discrimination towards white men compared to minority women. You don't hear of how hard it is for them to find jobs etc. I could list more.

Oh, and the Europe hate speech argument? Fortunately, I have both an EMIC and ETIC perspective of good ole 'Mmurica, and trust me, things are vastly different in how the rest of the 'western civilization' (your words) sees hate speech.

I eagerly await your twisting of my arguments
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:03 AM   #459
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Babydoll make sure you show that one to your white husband.
I know, right?
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:11 AM   #460
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1) limiting Free Speech in Europe is controversial
2) I was not making up the fact that it was controversial
3) there is plenty of discussion on the topic (it was implied that I was merely making up the fact that there are concerns about "Hate Speech" including questioning immigration policy - I offered a direct quote)
nonsense

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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Europe is not a country. Europe is made up of 49 countries, 28 of which organised in the European Union. Each country has its own set of laws. It would be greatly helpful if you were precise which country/countries in Europe are going down the gutter, and where we can't speak our minds for fear of retribution. It might surprise you to learn that not all European countries have hate speech laws.

Go to Poland or Hungary and you won't need to fear prosecution, as the state leaders are firmly on your side in your "concerns".

Do you have any idea of the kind of things people said "expressing concern" that they got fined for? Those are sentences such as "We can open Auschwitz anytime", "Drown them all" (including open cheering for each refugee boat capsizing in the Mediterranean), "Gas them", sharing pictures of the Holocaust and similar (ironically, many of these people also tend to deny the Holocaust ever happened). Those are things you get fined for. Mostly, you have to pay several hundred up to a few thousand Euros. Hardly anyone goes to prison for it.

Yet, voicing concern is not stifled. For about two years people took to the streets voicing their concern each week. You probably heard about this Pegida movement. It was even adopted in England, if not other countries. Again a striking irony: Speakers saying through loudspeakers at protest marches protected by police, paid for by the taxpayers, "We can't speak our minds anymore. Free speech is being taken from us!" Members of the AFD party are on TV each week, agitating against refugees, at the same time complaining they can't speak freely, and TV is not giving them airtime (while sitting in a talkshow of a public TV station).

Germany does have hate speech laws. The crime is called "Volksverhetzung". It's very clearly defined, hasn't turned into a slippery slope, and is a result of our country's history (sorry, can't get around the reductio ad Hitlerum in this country).

Finally, the Middle Easterners that people are so concerned about are not immigrants, they are refugees. Plain and simple. Trust me, I'm working with them. In Germany and in Iraq. They are not coming for the nice summers. And certainly not for "our women". The concerns people are being fined for are, as I mentioned above, not worries about "How do we accommodate all of them?" or similar, they are a mixture of xenophobia and islamophobia, fear of social decline, opportunism by the ultra-right etc. There are many ways to express these concerns which I find greatly concerning, but which are still within their legal rights to utter.
facts
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