US Politics III

[AEON]

Still waiting on this one. Do YOU happen to have a source?

Please educate yourself some more without just posting things with catchy titles.

I'm happy you took the time to see that I did not make it up. That at least "things with catchy titles" exist....

Writing for Gatestone Institute, British commentator Douglas Murray noted that this assault on "racist" speech "appears to include anything critical of the EU's current catastrophic immigration policy." He wrote:

"By deciding that 'xenophobic' comment in reaction to the crisis is also 'racist,' Facebook has made the view of the majority of the European people (who, it must be stressed, are opposed to Chancellor Merkel's policies) into 'racist' views, and so is condemning the majority of Europeans as 'racist.' This is a policy that will do its part in pushing Europe into a disastrous future.

This quote echos my concern. If you throw any dissenting opinion into the "racist" bucket, then all you need to do is label anything you oppose as "racist" to get what you want...

source:
Germany Passes "Orwellian" Anti-Free-Speech "Facebook Law" | Zero Hedge

 

[cobl04]

Man, you seem like Mr. MacPhisto from ZOO TV...


So, the belief that all "male" members of white race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, is not racist? (and also misandristic, but who's counting?)

So you would be okay with a "playful" video giving "light-hearted" tips to "Black Women" or "Middle Eastern Transgenders" on how they could improve interracial relations?

Tell him what exactly? That he would not have been beaten if the KKK had watched this video?

fuck, you are so deliberately obtuse.

no, I would not be okay with that video, because black women and middle-eastern trans people have been systematically oppressed, and white men have not.

you would say to that black man that him being beaten by the KKK is equal to a white man being told not to be condescending? that both are instances of racism and therefore equal?

 

[AEON]

no, I would not be okay with that video, because black women and middle-eastern trans people have been systematically oppressed, and white men have not.

You cannot defeat double standards with double standards. It only deepens the divide.

you would say to that black man that him being beaten by the KKK is equal to a white man being told not to be condescending? that both are instances of racism and therefore equal?

While the video is painful to watch, I would take that over a beating I guess. However - both the video and beating are overtly racist. And as we know from history, racist propaganda can lead to very dire consequences.

 

[cobl04]

well, you have upsettingly bad opinions on things. I am done.

 

[AEON]

well, you have upsettingly bad opinions on things. I am done.

"In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat, but in the evolution of real knowledge it marks the first step in progress toward a victory. " Alfred North Whitehead

 

[cobl04]

Alfred probably never got a root

 

[Vincent Vega]

The problem is "Hate Speech" is way too vague to ban. What if suddenly those in power decided that deriding Christians or wearing a"Fightin' Irish" was now "Hate Speech" ? You would probably accuse me of hate speech for suggesting a "barrier" between the US and Mexico.

Yes, Free Speech is dying in Europe. I'm not sure that's a good thing. To speak out, or even express concern about the immigrants from the Middle East is labeled "Hate Speech" - so these citizens now have zero control over their own country. It's all in the hands of the government, and not the people.

Europe is not a country. Europe is made up of 49 countries, 28 of which organised in the European Union. Each country has its own set of laws. It would be greatly helpful if you were precise which country/countries in Europe are going down the gutter, and where we can't speak our minds for fear of retribution. It might surprise you to learn that not all European countries have hate speech laws.

Go to Poland or Hungary and you won't need to fear prosecution, as the state leaders are firmly on your side in your "concerns".

Do you have any idea of the kind of things people said "expressing concern" that they got fined for? Those are sentences such as "We can open Auschwitz anytime", "Drown them all" (including open cheering for each refugee boat capsizing in the Mediterranean), "Gas them", sharing pictures of the Holocaust and similar (ironically, many of these people also tend to deny the Holocaust ever happened). Those are things you get fined for. Mostly, you have to pay several hundred up to a few thousand Euros. Hardly anyone goes to prison for it.

Yet, voicing concern is not stifled. For about two years people took to the streets voicing their concern each week. You probably heard about this Pegida movement. It was even adopted in England, if not other countries. Again a striking irony: Speakers saying through loudspeakers at protest marches protected by police, paid for by the taxpayers, "We can't speak our minds anymore. Free speech is being taken from us!" Members of the AFD party are on TV each week, agitating against refugees, at the same time complaining they can't speak freely, and TV is not giving them airtime (while sitting in a talkshow of a public TV station).

Germany does have hate speech laws. The crime is called "Volksverhetzung". It's very clearly defined, hasn't turned into a slippery slope, and is a result of our country's history (sorry, can't get around the reductio ad Hitlerum in this country).

Finally, the Middle Easterners that people are so concerned about are not immigrants, they are refugees. Plain and simple. Trust me, I'm working with them. In Germany and in Iraq. They are not coming for the nice summers. And certainly not for "our women". The concerns people are being fined for are, as I mentioned above, not worries about "How do we accommodate all of them?" or similar, they are a mixture of xenophobia and islamophobia, fear of social decline, opportunism by the ultra-right etc. There are many ways to express these concerns which I find greatly concerning, but which are still within their legal rights to utter.

 

[Babydoll]

After listening to U2, how have you not understood this one simple truth: Every person on earth has a battle to fight. White men are no different. Unless...you think they actually are different. You seem to be arguing that white men are either superior for their inability to experience hardship, or inferior because their genetics require them to place undue hardship on others. Either way, your attitude seems very racist and misandristic.

Wow, calling ME a racist is rich Oh, and hilarious too You know nothing of me, about me, or you probably even do since you're a long time member and so am I, which makes your allegation towards my 'attitudes' even more ridiculous.

And no, I did not in any way mention anyone being superior or inferior. That is completely twisting my point. I am merely saying that the political and social climate in the US, especially the current political climate has traditionally been more conducive to the development of white males in particular. You do not hear of as much discrimination towards white men compared to minority women. You don't hear of how hard it is for them to find jobs etc. I could list more.

Oh, and the Europe hate speech argument? Fortunately, I have both an EMIC and ETIC perspective of good ole 'Mmurica, and trust me, things are vastly different in how the rest of the 'western civilization' (your words) sees hate speech.

I eagerly await your twisting of my arguments

 

[Babydoll]

Babydoll make sure you show that one to your white husband.

I know, right?

 

[Salome]

1) limiting Free Speech in Europe is controversial
2) I was not making up the fact that it was controversial
3) there is plenty of discussion on the topic (it was implied that I was merely making up the fact that there are concerns about "Hate Speech" including questioning immigration policy - I offered a direct quote)

nonsense

Europe is not a country. Europe is made up of 49 countries, 28 of which organised in the European Union. Each country has its own set of laws. It would be greatly helpful if you were precise which country/countries in Europe are going down the gutter, and where we can't speak our minds for fear of retribution. It might surprise you to learn that not all European countries have hate speech laws.

Go to Poland or Hungary and you won't need to fear prosecution, as the state leaders are firmly on your side in your "concerns".

Do you have any idea of the kind of things people said "expressing concern" that they got fined for? Those are sentences such as "We can open Auschwitz anytime", "Drown them all" (including open cheering for each refugee boat capsizing in the Mediterranean), "Gas them", sharing pictures of the Holocaust and similar (ironically, many of these people also tend to deny the Holocaust ever happened). Those are things you get fined for. Mostly, you have to pay several hundred up to a few thousand Euros. Hardly anyone goes to prison for it.

Yet, voicing concern is not stifled. For about two years people took to the streets voicing their concern each week. You probably heard about this Pegida movement. It was even adopted in England, if not other countries. Again a striking irony: Speakers saying through loudspeakers at protest marches protected by police, paid for by the taxpayers, "We can't speak our minds anymore. Free speech is being taken from us!" Members of the AFD party are on TV each week, agitating against refugees, at the same time complaining they can't speak freely, and TV is not giving them airtime (while sitting in a talkshow of a public TV station).

Germany does have hate speech laws. The crime is called "Volksverhetzung". It's very clearly defined, hasn't turned into a slippery slope, and is a result of our country's history (sorry, can't get around the reductio ad Hitlerum in this country).

Finally, the Middle Easterners that people are so concerned about are not immigrants, they are refugees. Plain and simple. Trust me, I'm working with them. In Germany and in Iraq. They are not coming for the nice summers. And certainly not for "our women". The concerns people are being fined for are, as I mentioned above, not worries about "How do we accommodate all of them?" or similar, they are a mixture of xenophobia and islamophobia, fear of social decline, opportunism by the ultra-right etc. There are many ways to express these concerns which I find greatly concerning, but which are still within their legal rights to utter.

facts

 

[kiwilad]

nonsense


facts

 

[BVS]

I think you are giving an example of quality actually winning, right?

Chinese slaves do


I think that screwing with wages by importing near-slave labor has probably slowed the tech revolution more than helped it. In the same way that slavery in the South slowed the progress of mechanization.

Yes, but the dry-waller can now afford to buy my widget and take his grandma to my wife's quaint Tea House downtown...it's a win win

Not ONE single honest answer here.

So paying $1000 for a smart phone would have given you the hologram phone by now?

Win win? So the drywaller, painter, mason, and framer wage goes up, housing goes up exponentially, coal miner wage doesn't change, but somehow the Trump voter will think win win? They're not even this gullible.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Europe is not a country. Europe is made up of 49 countries, 28 of which organised in the European Union. Each country has its own set of laws. It would be greatly helpful if you were precise which country/countries in Europe are going down the gutter, and where we can't speak our minds for fear of retribution. It might surprise you to learn that not all European countries have hate speech laws.

Go to Poland or Hungary and you won't need to fear prosecution, as the state leaders are firmly on your side in your "concerns".

Do you have any idea of the kind of things people said "expressing concern" that they got fined for? Those are sentences such as "We can open Auschwitz anytime", "Drown them all" (including open cheering for each refugee boat capsizing in the Mediterranean), "Gas them", sharing pictures of the Holocaust and similar (ironically, many of these people also tend to deny the Holocaust ever happened). Those are things you get fined for. Mostly, you have to pay several hundred up to a few thousand Euros. Hardly anyone goes to prison for it.

Yet, voicing concern is not stifled. For about two years people took to the streets voicing their concern each week. You probably heard about this Pegida movement. It was even adopted in England, if not other countries. Again a striking irony: Speakers saying through loudspeakers at protest marches protected by police, paid for by the taxpayers, "We can't speak our minds anymore. Free speech is being taken from us!" Members of the AFD party are on TV each week, agitating against refugees, at the same time complaining they can't speak freely, and TV is not giving them airtime (while sitting in a talkshow of a public TV station).

Germany does have hate speech laws. The crime is called "Volksverhetzung". It's very clearly defined, hasn't turned into a slippery slope, and is a result of our country's history (sorry, can't get around the reductio ad Hitlerum in this country).

Finally, the Middle Easterners that people are so concerned about are not immigrants, they are refugees. Plain and simple. Trust me, I'm working with them. In Germany and in Iraq. They are not coming for the nice summers. And certainly not for "our women". The concerns people are being fined for are, as I mentioned above, not worries about "How do we accommodate all of them?" or similar, they are a mixture of xenophobia and islamophobia, fear of social decline, opportunism by the ultra-right etc. There are many ways to express these concerns which I find greatly concerning, but which are still within their legal rights to utter.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Not ONE single honest answer here.

So paying $1000 for a smart phone would have given you the hologram phone by now?

Win win? So the drywaller, painter, mason, and framer wage goes up, housing goes up exponentially, coal miner wage doesn't change, but somehow the Trump voter will think win win? They're not even this gullible.

To be fair, a Doctor Brown and Mr. Martin McFly promised us flying cars by now.

 

[anitram]

This quote echos my concern. If you throw any dissenting opinion into the "racist" bucket, then all you need to do is label anything you oppose as "racist" to get what you want.

The problem is that you made a bombastic statement about how even expressing mere concerns about Middle East immigration is now illegal in Europe. You have not shown that to be the case. The argument you are presenting (via other people's articles) is that the potential is there for a slippery slope but that is the argument made any time a new law is introduced. Why not just admit that your "expressing concern" statement was wildly inaccurate? You can separately debate the merits of hate speech laws without making false claims.

 

[AEON]

Europe is not a country. Europe is made up of 49 countries, 28 of which organised in the European Union. Each country has its own set of laws. It would be greatly helpful if you were precise which country/countries in Europe are going down the gutter, and where we can't speak our minds for fear of retribution. It might surprise you to learn that not all European countries have hate speech laws.

Thank for clarifying, I believe I was responding to a general"Europe" comment, and I could have been more specific.

Go to Poland or Hungary and you won't need to fear prosecution, as the state leaders are firmly on your side in your "concerns".

That is a good thing in my opinion.

Do you have any idea of the kind of things people said "expressing concern" that they got fined for? Those are sentences such as "We can open Auschwitz anytime", "Drown them all" (including open cheering for each refugee boat capsizing in the Mediterranean), "Gas them", sharing pictures of the Holocaust and similar (ironically, many of these people also tend to deny the Holocaust ever happened). Those are things you get fined for. Mostly, you have to pay several hundred up to a few thousand Euros. Hardly anyone goes to prison for it.

While I find those comments revolting, they should be permitted - and certainly not worthy of any prison time. Also, their side of the story also claims they are not permitted to question anything about the holocaust (locations, numbers, methods...the normal things that historians change as new evidence is found)

Yet, voicing concern is not stifled. For about two years people took to the streets voicing their concern each week. You probably heard about this Pegida movement. It was even adopted in England, if not other countries. Again a striking irony: Speakers saying through loudspeakers at protest marches protected by police, paid for by the taxpayers, "We can't speak our minds anymore. Free speech is being taken from us!" Members of the AFD party are on TV each week, agitating against refugees, at the same time complaining they can't speak freely, and TV is not giving them airtime (while sitting in a talkshow of a public TV station).

Again, their side of the story is that they are certainly not given the same permits and protections as other demonstrators. They are only recently - with the rise of crime from the "refugees" - given more air time.

Germany does have hate speech laws. The crime is called "Volksverhetzung". It's very clearly defined, hasn't turned into a slippery slope, and is a result of our country's history (sorry, can't get around the reductio ad Hitlerum in this country).

anecdote here - I was at a bar in Maui last year drinking with a German college professor. He was liberal on most issues and he was amazed that Trump was winning primaries...When he found out I'm an Army officer, we discussed Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria....and how much he hated the Bush doctrine.

When the topic of conversation came to the refugees, he got quite vocal and loud about what was happening to his country and felt like his people didn't get the chance to even vote on the option to let them in. And, then he whispered, "it's the Jews."

I was shocked he went there, but he went there. This liberal German college professor...

Finally, the Middle Easterners that people are so concerned about are not immigrants, they are refugees. Plain and simple. Trust me, I'm working with them. In Germany and in Iraq. They are not coming for the nice summers. And certainly not for "our women". The concerns people are being fined for are, as I mentioned above, not worries about "How do we accommodate all of them?" or similar, they are a mixture of xenophobia and islamophobia, fear of social decline, opportunism by the ultra-right etc. There are many ways to express these concerns which I find greatly concerning, but which are still within their legal rights to utter.

Wouldn't be better for the refugees and these host nations, if these refugees went somewhere in the Middle East? Why send them into a culture that obviously clashes with theirs. It doesn't seem fair to them - or those receiving them.

 

[AEON]

Not ONE single honest answer here.

So paying $1000 for a smart phone would have given you the hologram phone by now?

Win win? So the drywaller, painter, mason, and framer wage goes up, housing goes up exponentially, coal miner wage doesn't change, but somehow the Trump voter will think win win? They're not even this gullible.

BVS, you do seem to be supporting the idea that illegal immigrants are a great source of cheap labor (which means under the table labor - pennies on the dollar, no worker's rights, brutal conditions...etc)

 

[Babydoll]

Thank for clarifying, I believe I was responding to a general"Europe" comment, and I could have been more specific.

That is a good thing in my opinion.

While I find those comments revolting, they should be permitted - and certainly not worthy of any prison time. Also, their side of the story also claims they are not permitted to question anything about the holocaust (locations, numbers, methods...the normal things that historians change as new evidence is found)

Again, their side of the story is that they are certainly not given the same permits and protections as other demonstrators. They are only recently - with the rise of crime from the "refugees" - given more air time.

anecdote here - I was at a bar in Maui last year drinking with a German college professor. He was liberal on most issues and he was amazed that Trump was winning primaries...When he found out I'm an Army officer, we discussed Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria....and how much he hated the Bush doctrine.

When the topic of conversation came to the refugees, he got quite vocal and loud about what was happening to his country and felt like his people didn't get the chance to even vote on the option to let them in. And, then he whispered, "it's the Jews."

I was shocked he went there, but he went there. This liberal German college professor...

Wouldn't be better for the refugees and these host nations, if these refugees went somewhere in the Middle East? Why send them into a culture that obviously clashes with theirs. It doesn't seem fair to them - or those receiving them.

I am sure Leif can answer most of these for himself, but I just wanted to say that Middle Eastern nations have taken in refugees. Bono had an entire documentary on the crisis, and I'm sure you may know that he went to appeal to the Senate to communicate how full the Middle eastern countries are, and made a case for the US needing to accept more displaced people.

Jordan and Lebanon have each taken over a million refugees, Iraq hosts 245,543 refugees, in addition to 3.2 million internally displaced Iraqis, and there were 2,688,686 registered refugees in Turkey as of 2016.

 

[anitram]

While I find those comments revolting, they should be permitted - and certainly not worthy of any prison time. Also, their side of the story also claims they are not permitted to question anything about the holocaust (locations, numbers, methods...the normal things that historians change as new evidence is found)

There are excellent historically relevant reasons for why those nations disagree with you on whether hate speech should be curtailed. Is that not a fair consideration?

 

[AEON]

There are excellent historically relevant reasons for why those nations disagree with you on whether hate speech should be curtailed. Is that not a fair consideration?

I do no think that curtailing free speech is ever a valid solution. I think that equating Hate Speech laws and Forth Reich prevention is a False Cause. I think the cause is more likely to be the occupying forces after World War II (the US is still there) and the German culture changing their views on Jews (the US was also anti-semitic before World War II).

 

[anitram]

OK, well we can agree to disagree.

We have hate speech laws in Canada that are not aimed at preventing the Fourth Reich, but exist nicely and easily within our constitutional rights which are quite a bit different than yours. The US "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" in Canada is known as the POGG clause (peace, order and good government), which prioritizes things differently. No slippery slope either.

 

[BVS]

BVS, you do seem to be supporting the idea that illegal immigrants are a great source of cheap labor (which means under the table labor - pennies on the dollar, no worker's rights, brutal conditions...etc)

Not at all. I'm saying it's so engrained in our economies, and when you ask Trump supporters if they understand the impact of what they're trying to do, it's obvious they don't and aren't prepared to make those changes and sacrifices. They want their American made Trump tie, but they want to buy it at Walmart for the same Walmart price.

It doesn't work that way, and it seems you're unaware of what you're asking for.

 

[AEON]

OK, well we can agree to disagree.

I concur.

 

[AEON]

Not at all. I'm saying it's so engrained in our economies, and when you ask Trump supporters if they understand the impact of what they're trying to do, it's obvious they don't and aren't prepared to make those changes and sacrifices. They want their American made Trump tie, but they want to buy it at Walmart for the same Walmart price.

It doesn't work that way, and it seems you're unaware of what you're asking for.

BVS, these issues pre-date Trump and will remain well past his 8 years in office...as my Clinton speech points out.

Also, by saying, "it's so engrained in our economies," - aren't you echoing the South's justification for slavery? Because cheap labor certainly was engrained in their economy...

 

[BEAL]

No, BVS is not echoing that.

Cheap labor is not slavery.

 

[BVS]

BVS, these issues pre-date Trump and will remain well past his 8 years in office...as my Clinton speech points out.

No kidding? Are you serious? but you get points for bringing in Clinton, yet once again.

Yes illegal immigration and labor has been an issue for decades, but the anti-globalism(which is part of this conversation as well) is a fairly new battle-cry, we can think Alex Jones and Bannon for that one.

Also, by saying, "it's so engrained in our economies," - aren't you echoing the South's justification for slavery? Because it certainly was engrained in their economy...

No, and fuck off for continually trying to make that equivalency it's absolutely disingenuous(at best).

I'm saying that you don't even begin to understand how your life would be effected if "globalism" was suddenly shut down and the borders permanently closed.

 

[AEON]

No kidding? Are you serious? but you get points for bringing in Clinton, yet once again.

Yes illegal immigration and labor has been an issue for decades, but the anti-globalism(which is part of this conversation as well) is a fairly new battle-cry, we can think Alex Jones and Bannon for that one.

I'm not an anti-globalist but I do think trade agreements should be win-win scenarios.

No, and fuck off for continually trying to make that equivalency it's absolutely disingenuous(at best).

I disagree. I think the economic reasoning for taking advantage of illegal immigrants (and their cheap labor) is comparable to slavery.

I'm saying that you don't even begin to understand how your life would be effected if "globalism" was suddenly shut down and the borders permanently closed.

Securing the border is not the same as shutting down "globalism."

 

[BVS]

I disagree. I think the economic reasoning for taking advantage of illegal immigrants (and their cheap labor) is comparable to slavery.

Which isn't what I'm doing, so please stop. This is why no one finds you to be honest.

Securing the border is not the same as shutting down "globalism."

YOU were the one that mentioned globalism before and your community making your own smartphones.

YOU were the one that dishonestly stated that the Dems created globalism for cheap labor.

YOU were the one that voted for that absolute mindless platform.

This is why no one finds to be honest.

 

[anitram]

I also don't get this constant whataboutism with the Clintons.

If it's some sort of effort to showcase our hypocrisy as AEON claims that's pretty funny given that most people posting on the thread don't even appear to be Americans and it would be a fair guess to say that the Clintons are considered centre-right (generously) by most of that group. Would I have without a moment's hesitation supported Hillary over Trump, a man who is totally unhinged, unprepared and unfit to lead? You bet. But do I actually support her or her policies writ large? No. And same goes for Bill Clinton, who is actually even worse when it came to triangulating. So this whole "but the Clintons wanted a wall too!" is so stupid, like hello we wouldn't vote for them either. Who gives a shit if they want a wall or not?

 

[AEON]

Which isn't what I'm doing, so please stop. This is why no one finds you to be honest.

Sorry, I thought you stated that one of the reasons for not stopping illegal immigration was the negative impact on the economy (price of labor would rise, therefore the price of goods would rise)

YOU were the one that mentioned globalism before and your community making your own smartphones.

Are you sure I'm the one that brought up that point about the smart phones?

YOU were the one that dishonestly stated that the Dems created globalism for cheap labor.

I recall a back-and-forth where I agreed that both parties for responsible for this.

YOU were the one that voted for that absolute mindless platform.

I have not shared which candidate received my vote - or if I even voted at all.

This is why no one finds to be honest.

BVS, what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?