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Old 09-04-2017, 02:53 AM   #301
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I'm really torn here. I do understand aeon's point, i think, that as long as the law says freedom of speech exists, it must exist for all.
Personally I don't like that law. I'm not certain but I don't think it exists in nz to the extent it does in the US.
But the point is it IS law for the US. And if that's how it's going to stay sane (non nazis) need to suck it up.

But it's a stupid law that allows people to publicly march in support of Nazism. I mean, wtf? Nazism.
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:12 AM   #302
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Is Muhammad Ali a racist for these things?

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Old 09-04-2017, 03:57 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by kiwilad View Post
I'm really torn here. I do understand aeon's point, i think, that as long as the law says freedom of speech exists, it must exist for all.
Personally I don't like that law. I'm not certain but I don't think it exists in nz to the extent it does in the US.
But the point is it IS law for the US. And if that's how it's going to stay sane (non nazis) need to suck it up.

But it's a stupid law that allows people to publicly march in support of Nazism. I mean, wtf? Nazism.
But what if conservatives (who are currently in power in the US) pass a law that bans Communist or Socialist marches? Gay Pride Parades? BLM demonstrations? Antiwar protests....or whatever...Thankfully, they know it would never pass because free speech is a fundamental right to a thriving democracy/republic. It is the First (prime) Amendment.

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Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:13 AM   #304
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the amendment is a piece of shit that was written 400 years ago and continues to be peddled by simpletons. god forbid it be updated.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:23 AM   #305
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But what if conservatives (who are currently in power in the US) pass a law that bans Communist or Socialist marches? Gay Pride Parades? BLM demonstrations? Antiwar protests....or whatever...Thankfully, they know it would never pass because free speech is a fundamental right to a thriving democracy/republic. It is the First (prime) Amendment.
This is where I can't work out whether you're seriously arguing the point or just trolling.
One the one hand we're talking about nazism. Last century that movement began with marches, with blame for one group's fortunes being leveled at the existence of another group.
End result: holocaust.
Your examples: antiwar protests, BLM, gay pride... those are ridiculous comparisons.

Your point, I guess, is where do you draw the line. I don't know where. But what the far right marches look like to me is more sedition than free speech. That's the conversation I think we should be having.

If free speech is used as a weapon to mobilise terrorism and bring physical harm to other innocent citizens then yeah, I sure as shit have a problem with it.

Do you?
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:36 AM   #306
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AEON answer me this.

In Charlottesville, a large group of white people were marching to protest the removal of a statue, correct?

Black people marched because they were actively segregated from society.
Gay people marched because they were actively segregated from society.
Women marched because they were actively segregated from society.

White people march and it's because they don't want a statue taken down?

Surely you can see the difference here.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:44 AM   #307
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AEON answer me this.

In Charlottesville, a large group of white people were marching to protest the removal of a statue, correct?

Black people marched because they were actively segregated from society.
Gay people marched because they were actively segregated from society.
Women marched because they were actively segregated from society.

White people march and it's because they don't want a statue taken down?

Surely you can see the difference here.
I don't disagree there is a difference in motivation. But every example you listed...each one has the right to march peacefully (without interference). Ironically, had antifa not showed up at Charlottesville, the march would have been a non-event that would made the local news (if that).
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:52 AM   #308
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A member of that group drove a car into a crowd and killed a peaceful protestor, but ok.
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:03 AM   #309
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So I didn't read every news report on Charlottesville and clearly I wasn't there, but Aeon is your central premise that antifa were responsible for the violence at that march? That those alt-righters weren't intent on violence? That they didn't attempt to enter a church to commit violence? That the death was an accident?
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:54 AM   #310
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It's a slippery slope, man. Ban one hate group and you're in danger of banning all aspects of free expression.

Just look at Germany. They banned Nazis after WW2 and now they're all forced to wear the same silly outfits.




Is this the America you want? I didn't think so. #MAGA
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:02 AM   #311
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Unfortunately, Germany does have an issue (and has had in the past) with neo-Nazis currently - even if the Swastika is banned as a symbol.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:29 AM   #312
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Twasn't really the point there, but yes, they do.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:13 AM   #313
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A member of that group drove a car into a crowd and killed a peaceful protestor, but ok.
And driving cars into people is a crime... the First Amendment does not cover this...
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:15 AM   #314
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It's a slippery slope, man. Ban one hate group and you're in danger of banning all aspects of free expression.

Just look at Germany. They banned Nazis after WW2 and now they're all forced to wear the same silly outfits.




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You can't ban ideas...they just go underground (and often grow into some far darker). when they are not permitted a public forum.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:29 AM   #315
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So I didn't read every news report on Charlottesville and clearly I wasn't there, but Aeon is your central premise that antifa were responsible for the violence at that march? That those alt-righters weren't intent on violence? That they didn't attempt to enter a church to commit violence? That the death was an accident?
Antifa certainly is responsible the violence they initiated. They were there to disrupt this march. The alt-right (which is a pretty loosely defined group) had a right to march peacefully, antifa was there to make certain that didn't happen.

Now, each man and woman is still responsible for his or her actions. And as the evidence comes in - many people will be charged with crimes on both sides.

There are certainly examples of antifa using violence recently to intimidate everything from Trump supporters (simply the ones who voted for Trump), to Alt Right speakers like Milo to conservative TV personalities like Ann Coulter. Who will they attack next? Stand-up comedians that talk about racial stereotypes in their skits? I think the alt-right marchers were prepared to defend themselves.

I blame antifa for not permitting free expression, for initiating the violence. I blame the alt-right for over-reacting - but I do not blame the march itself. It has a place in a free society.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:41 AM   #316
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Am I wrong in interpreting the First Amendment to mean that people are free to speak their minds without fear of being incarcerated by the government?

There has to be reasonable limits on speech and banning public demonstrations by people who are advocating for the extermination of minorities seems entirely reasonable to me. Hate speech has no place in a truly free society. People should be allowed to be who they are, regardless of ethnic background, skin colour, religion, or sexual orientation.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:51 AM   #317
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Antifa certainly is responsible the violence they initiated. They were there to disrupt this march. The alt-right (which is a pretty loosely defined group) had a right to march peacefully, antifa was there to make certain that didn't happen.




It's sad that you're still so predisposed to choose one side. The unite the right crowd were there with the intention of violence. Stop pretending otherwise.

With the exception of the few non-Americans in here, no one is arguing against the first amendment, you're arguing a ghost.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:53 AM   #318
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You can't ban ideas...they just go underground (and often grow into some far darker). when they are not permitted a public forum.
Who said anything about banning ideas?

We should have banned the symbols of an ideology of hate back in the days of Reconstruction, much like Germany did with the swastika.

It doesn't mean that there won't always be assholes who spew hate, and other assholes who make excuses for that hate. And no, that doesn't mean we tear down every monument to a person who had some bad things in their past, stupid idiotic America. But it does mean we take the monuments of those who actually led a rebellion against our country in the name of racial superiority and servitude, which never should have been allowed to be built in the first place, and turn them into fucking rubble.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:17 PM   #319
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Repealing DACA is heartless and also contrary to wanting educated skilled immigrants. It's another way of appealing to the racists. The worst part is repealing this is unsurprising from this dumpster fire of an administration. The racist in chief will continue to pander to the KKK, and new-Nazis of America and the gutless GOP will go down in flames.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:23 PM   #320
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America (and the rest of Western Civilization) relies on the freedom of speech to keep evolving. That mean, some ideas will be expressed that you or I disagree with. - and we must allow it so that good ones all come forward.
That's either disingenuous or ignorant of you to suggest.

Among "Western Civilization" the USA is basically alone in their absolute right to free speech (with some very very limited restrictions). The rest of us all live in legal systems which clamp down on hate speech (that Charlottesville march would fall under such) and incitement of violence (much lower threshold than in US). And many of our states function not just fine but actually generally better than the US.

So let's not pretend that if we don't allow every asshole to publicly scream out his hatred while brandishing a weapon, as they did in Charlottesville, that's somehow a slippery slope to totalitarianism. Totally, 100% false and not only false but demonstrably false.
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